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When we first spoke to Wen Wen Yang in 2019, she was looking for help with a question that plagued her adult life: How do you be middle class? Is there some sort of guidebook for figuring it out? Yang had grown up in a lower-income family, and even though she was now earning a comfortably middle-class income, she felt like she would always be an outsider. She told our host, Reema Khrais, “I’m probably always going to be like an anthropologist wherever I am, being like, ‘Oh this is a new thing, and I’m learning about it.’”
On this week’s episode, we check in with Yang to find out how she’s handling that class anxiety these days. She’s just as observant as she was before, well aware of the markers of class that surround us every day. But those markers no longer bring her the sense of shame that they used to. She shared that, even though it was hard not to internalize all the biases around poverty she’d come across earlier in life, “I feel like I have encountered so much more language around the fact that, no, there are systems that are hurting us, and things are built up against us.”
That’s a huge shift in perspective, but it doesn’t mean everything has changed. In a candid discussion with “This Is Uncomfortable,” Yang shares how her upbringing still informs some of her financial decisions and the hurdles she hopes to overcome.
We’ll also hear an excerpt from Marketplace’s newest show, “Financially Inclined,” featuring a conversation with host Yanely Espinal and our very own Reema Khrais!
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This is Uncomfortable June 1, 2023 Transcript
Note: Marketplace podcasts are meant to be heard, with emphasis, tone and audio elements a transcript can’t capture. Transcripts are generated using a combination of automated software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting it.
Reema Khrais: Hi!
Wen Wen: Hello.
Reema Khrais: How’s it going? Oh my god, it’s been so long.
Wen Wen: It’s been a minute.
This is Wen Wen Yang…
The last time we spoke felt like another lifetime ago. I talked with her for an episode our team did on class anxiety, during our very first season.
Reema Khrais: Um, oh my God, I think it’s been how long? About a few years since we’ve talked?
Wen Wen: Yes. Yeah, it was 2019.
Wen Wen is a listener of the show, and back then, she wrote in to us with a question. She asked ..how do you be middle class? She wanted a guidebook
She explained how she grew up poor, but now she was making decent money and struggling to figure out the norms of a class she wasn’t born into….
Wen Wen: like how do I navigate it…without signaling to other people that would like hey, she’s new here!
Wen Wen grew up in a household where money was tight – her parents are immigrants from China, her mom was a seamstress, her dad worked at a restaurant. She’d only see her dad at home once a week just cause he worked so much.
Then after college, Wen Wen got a job working as a revenue analyst, making 50-thousand dollars – more than her parents combined – which meant she’d officially entered the middle class…and she felt pretty lost…
Like she told me about this one time she went out with her coworkers for lunch
Wen Wen: It was like a nice restaurant close to work and I was like OK I can. That’s a burger. I know those ingredients, I can eat that. And I was like OK so I have this burger. And he and the waiter said, “How do you like it cooked?” And I was like, “does it matter?”
And he says, “not to me but probably to you.” And then he chuckled
and I’m still looking at him going like, “please give me a clue. what do I say?” And he’s like, “What do you like is a little pink OK?” I’m like yes. And he’s like, “OK that that’s medium. We can do that for you.” Okay. And then later I’m like, oh it’s like ordering a steak. Okay.
Because they don’t ask you you know how do you like a burger cooked at McDonald’s.
When we last spoke, Wen Wen told me she found herself dodging certain social situations, or just totally omitting parts of her life so she didn’t seem out of place, so people wouldn’t judge her. She described feeling like an outsider observing her middle class peers. And she worried she’d always feel this way…
Wen Wen: I’m probably always going to be like an anthropologist wherever I am being like oh this is a new thing and I’m learning about it but it definitely is assembling pieces that you know, becoming more and more middle class
So now almost four years later, I was so curious to see how she’s doing today…all I knew according to her LinkedIn is that she’s still living in the same city in Texas and she’s still working a corporate job at Hilton Hotels.
I reached out and set up time to connect on Zoom…
Reema Khrais: the last time we spoke, you know, it was before the pandemic. Things were different. How have you been since then?
Wen Wen: Uh, so I have started writing again. Um, I. My degree’s in creative writing and, like, with the pandemic, I feel like a lot of people had a, uh, what if you die suddenly? Like, is this the life that you would have want, you know, to be in your obituary? Is this how you want to be remembered? Um, and I’m like, I still have some stories in me. Like there’s a story I still want to get out there
Reema Khrais: hmm. Mm. hmm. And why are you drawn to that?
Wen Wen: I think it’s a little bit of, um, I play God, right? I am in control of these characters lives. But I’m able to get them to the ending I want. Like, the bad guy gets punished, the good person gets, um, You know, the, the just rewards. um, and I, I also realized it kind of ties into growing up poor in that, uh, it didn’t need extra supplies. because a lot of people are like, oh yeah, I used to cross stitch, you know, when I was a kid, I used to knit, um, and I was like, that, that was not something I picked up, my parents were not going to buy me extra, you know, art supplies or
Reema Khrais: Do you feel less self conscious these days about your class background?
Wen Wen: Yes
Reema Khrais: Why do you think you felt so much shame before?
Wen Wen: Uh, it, it was probably because I didn’t feel as, um, like now I feel further away from that time, right? And, the, the notions that people have about, people being poor, it’s like, it will, it was your fault that this happened, and it’s just like, no, that was a circumstance of my birth, um, or that, you know, if you just work hard enough, you could bootstrap your way out, and I feel like I have encountered so much more, uh, language around the fact that, no, there are systems that are hurting us, and things are built up against us and that, that helped me, um, come, come to terms with like, okay, right, it, I was just internalizing, you know, all the, the hatred for, for poor people, as opposed to being like, oh, right the system I was living in just was wanting to keep people down.
Reema Khrais: Wow, that’s a huge perspective shift. Because yeah, before it sounds like you were really blaming yourself and your family.
Wen Wen: yeah, It’s like, man, there’s some really mediocre rich people that’s like never fall down or they fall up somehow, right? Like
Reema Khrais: what are you talking about? Every rich person is smart and capable. Just kidding.
Wen Wen: you, you trashed your company and then you get a, you know, golden parachute. How does that work out?
Reema Khrais: Hah right…
I’m curious, the last time we talked, you told me that you really craved a guidebook to the middle class. Is that something you still want?
Wen Wen: Um, I’m feeling a bit more confident in my own skin and learning, um, I guess from experience, the tricks of the trade of skipping around a conversation if, uh, I, if I feel the need to.
Reema Khrais: What are, is there an example that comes to mind of, of skipping around a conversation?
Wen Wen: Uh, yeah. So, uh, we had a team meeting, um, in, uh, late last year, and the, the icebreaker question on the first day was like, what’s your favorite purchase of the last year? Which I’m like, oh no, consumerism. Um, but also I don’t I don’t recall buying anything…. And I’m like, and I was, like, racking my brain. And then I
Reema Khrais: you just haven’t bought anything because… Hmm.
Wen Wen: uh, I don’t, uh, like, I waffle on buying stuff because I’m just like, you gotta, like, have a pro con list. You gotta be like, all right, this thing is worth it because, you know, is it replacing Um, something that I broke, is it better, is it solving a problem that I have? Um, and then I, it got to me and I was just like, uh, my favorite purchase was my Invisalign because I’m straightening my teeth. And then, you know, I pass it off to the next person.
Reema Khrais: that’s a big purchase.
Wen Wen: That, exactly, it was a huge purchase.
Reema Khrais: how much did that cost?
Wen Wen: that was, uh, I think around 5,500.
Reema Khrais: Wow.
Wen Wen: Yeah.
Reema Khrais: What was it like paying that?
Wen Wen: Um. it felt like a lot, but, um, my, my thought process was it is really bugging me that I can’t chew and bite into things that I want. And,// I don’t really like the way I smile. So…
Reema Khrais: Mm-hmm.
Well, I also think how your teeth look can be a marker of your class status
Wen Wen: Yeah, yeah. That’s totally something I thought about.
Reema Khrais: Have you been self conscious about your teeth in the past?
Wen Wen: yes…like, not smiling in photos, um, or like, covering my mouth when, um, I’m laughing, Mm hmm. um,
Reema Khrais: That’s exhausting, like laughing, but then not really being able to enjoy it because you’re thinking about how you’re being perceived.
Wen Wen: Yes.
Reema Khrais: Does it make you anxious to spend money?
Wen Wen: Probably, yeah, I’m a very cheap person
Like I bought the cheapest toaster and my husband he’s just like this thing seems like it’s about to set us on fire I’m like, no, no, it’s fine. It’s fine and then obviously my toaster broke When I pressed it, it didn’t, um, start warming up and I’m just like, Oh, this feels like it’s about to set on fire.
Reema Khrais: It reminds me when you told me that you used to duct tape your shoes
Wen Wen: oh yea I used to guerilla glue!
Reema Khrais: guerilla glue, right…
Reema Khrais: Hmm, if you’re living so frugally, presumably you have a lot of savings or do you feel comfortable sharing any specifics about your financial life?
Wen Wen: Uh, not, not on radio.
Reema Khrais: That’s totally fair. Um, can you give us like a sense of how financially comfortable you are? Okay.
Wen Wen: Um, I have enough that if we were both unemployed for a year, we’ll be okay. Mm hmm
Reema Khrais: I’m just pushing back here. I’m not saying that this is actually how I feel, but I can imagine maybe someone else might feel completely differently than you, right? Like, maybe they’re very conscious of, their mortality, and their approach is to indulge, to spend, to You know, live comfortably.
Wen Wen: Oh, yeah, yeah, totally, I’m on the side of, you know, save everything, if I can do it myself, I’ll do it myself, and, and a friend of mine she’s just like, I was denied these toys, so I now, even though I have no children, I have a room full of toys that I could not have as, as a child, and I’m like, interesting,
Reema Khrais: I really relate to that. I, I mean, I grew up probably middle class, um, But one income household. My dad was a nurse. So, you know, we’re not making a ton of money for a family of five. But yeah, I think we weren’t necessarily able to indulge right, if we are traveling you’re Eating, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, we’re not eating out.
And so as an adult today, if I’m traveling and I’m in an airport, I get so excited by the idea of eating airport food, even though it’s incredibly expensive because it’s just, yeah, it feels like a way to, um, satisfy my, my inner child. So yeah, it’s interesting. I think people have different approaches. Hmm.
Wen Wen: it’s just like, trying to calm down that little child in me that’s just like, it’s gonna be fine. We’re, we’re adults now. We, we’re, you know, solidly here. The, the, the world’s not like, not going to come crashing down around our ears. It’s gonna be fine.
Like, because, because I think, um, my response to Growing Up Poor was, um, I can’t have the thing, so don’t want the thing. Um, and I sort of wish I got to want the thing again.//. like, hey, I, I still haven’t left the country. Maybe I should plan an international trip.
But it’s almost like I am too afraid to want the thing because, like, what if it, you know, I peek over the fence and go, Oh, no, never mind. Actually, that is way more expensive than I thought it would be. I will afford this later, you know?
Reema Khrais: I am curious, when you say that you’re very frugal, um, do you go out to eat?
Wen Wen: No. What we do for our birthdays. So, like, once a year.
Reema Khrais: okay, wow, that’s so interesting,
Wen Wen: Yeah, I know, I know. One of my friends, he’s also super frugal, but he does it once a week, and I’m like, stunning! That, that’s so often, sir!
Reema Khrais: know, I do it sometimes multiple times a week and it’s terrible. but I also do enjoy it
Wen Wen: I think it comes from, exactly, you gotta enjoy it, and then, I think it also comes from my, again, my parents, uh, having worked in food service, they’re just like, no, we have food at home, and, uh, you know, that’s expensive
Reema Khrais: But. Again, same thing. that was always the thing I heard. We have food at home. And now as an adult, I’m like, we can go out to eat.
We can, I can go to Golden Corral. That’s now where I would go but…
Wen Wen: Yeah, the eight year old you can see your own wallet and is going like, We can afford this. Let’s go.
Reema Khrais: Chuckle
What are your financial goals? So you’re saving a lot, you’re frugal. What do you hope to do with your savings?
Wen Wen: Ah, gosh, the funny part is, like, I don’t know if I necessarily have a goal. It’s not like I’m saving enough to buy a house, because I’m just like, no, homeownership does not sound like a thing I want to do.
so the goal is just like to make sure I have enough for however long I live for that to be a comfortable life because again, no children. Right. Um, But also//I remember applying for financial aid and asking my dad, uh, you know, the FASFA asks if your parents have retirement, um, savings. And I asked him if he had any and he says, “No, you’re my retirement plan.” And I was like, great, no pressure.
Reema Khrais: How do you feel about that?
Wen Wen: Um, I don’t know. It’s part of the culture. It is, um, it’s not something I can, like, run away from, right? It’s like, yes, I’m still their kid// like, I can’t let them… Fall like that.
Reema Khrais: So I’m curious, um, if you had to write out like your ideal plotline for how your life will unfold financially, what would that be?
Wen Wen: To have no financial concerns, and then be able to use that money to help others. Like,
Reema Khrais: Hmm.
Wen Wen: To, to keep passing it on. you know, like how PBS does the, uh, and viewers like you, thank you, um, like, to be named in one of those things, like, yeah, this came from the Win Win Yang Foundation// that would be amazing. amazing.
Reema Khrais: What would that signify?
Wen Wen: oh, that, that would be making it, right?
Like I feel like some people are like, oh yes, if I have this kind of car and this kind of house, and I’m just like a, a legacy where someone goes, oh, I’d recognize that name from, you know, some, something doing good, right?
Reema Khrais: So it’s like basically you want to be in a position where you’re able to provide some financial security for other people.
Wen Wen: Yeah. Cause like once you stop worrying about yourself, right. Like, um. Once your belly is full, then you worry about, oh wait, I remember being hungry. I got to make sure my friends have food too. Like once the worry about myself is done, is reaching back and pulling the next person forward.
Reema Khrais: Yea I think that’s really beautiful
So one of the reasons I decided to reach back out to Wen Wen is because one of my colleagues, Yanely Espinal, recently told me that Wenwen’s story was her favorite episode of the show, that it really resonated with her and how she grew up. Yanely is the host of Marketplace’s newest podcast, Financially Inclined. It just debuted in April and I was actually recently a guest on the show.
Coming up after the break, I share my conversation with Yanely
So doing this show for the past four years, I’ve interviewed a LOT of people about their feelings and money. And while I’m usually the one asking the questions, I was recently invited on to a podcast to talk about some of the things I’ve learned.
It’s the show I mentioned earlier…Financially Inclined, it’s also from Marketplace and it’s hosted by Yanely Espinal. It’s a financial literacy podcast on YouTube that’s geared towards younger audiences. The conversation you’re about to hear is an excerpt from her show, I hope you enjoy it.
So I’ve actually been listening to This Is Uncomfortable for a long time, like since season one. I’ve listened to so many episodes. And I’m curious what made you start the podcast.
At the time I was in my mid twenties, I had just moved across the country to Los Angeles from North Carolina, you know I was living with a roommate and we, uh, were hanging out all the time with our friends. We would go out to eat, we’d go out on these, you know, vacations and I was realizing that, you know, we all came from really different financial backgrounds, right? Like some folks were still living at home with their parents, others, um, were still figuring out their careers, um, but we like never talked about money. So like there were these clues you could pick up here and there, but I remember thinking a lot of like, you know, am I doing this right? How much should I have in savings? You know, what does it say about me that I am not more in control of my finances? And so it felt like something I had to go about alone and in secret. Um, which is wild, right? Cuz like money defines so much of our lives. And at the time I also remember I had never really had a frank conversation about money with my family. I don’t know if you have,
Later, like I feel like in my twenties, no. But as I started getting into my thirties, I’m like, all right, we need to start talking about this.
yeah. And so I was in my mid twenties, I never talked about money with my family. And I remember one day I sat down with my dad and um, He was like, well, I asked him, I was like, “Baba, how much do you think I, I have in savings?” And he was like, “Well, you know, you’re 26. You lived at home with us for a couple years, you know, um, I think you should have like a hundred thousand.” I was like, what? I was like, what reality are you living in? Um, I do not have a hundred thousand dollars. Um, but anyway, all to say that I just was realizing we weren’t having conversations about it. And so I wanted to really, you know, dig into why we handle money the way that we do.
You had so many conversations with so many different people from all walks of life. After all of those conversations, when you reflect back on them, how have you noticed that money comes up for people as they’re talking to you about their lives?
The themes I’ve noticed are there’s so much shame and fear when it comes to money. There’s this fear that those numbers might become another way to feel categorized or judged or somehow it’ll become a reflection of our own worth in this world.
I hear that a lot. Which makes sense, right? There’s this fear that we don’t wanna be defined by our financial status and be reduced to just our class status, um, or what’s in our bank account
And you know I also think oftentimes when we’re talking about money, we’re not really talking about money, right? Like, you might think you’re anxious about money, and yeah, you are, but you might be also anxious about how you’re not reaching milestones as quickly as your friends are, or might feel stressed out about a parent who’s aging. So a lot of times it’s about really peeling back layers and figuring out the deeper emotions that we feel towards money.
But when you’re 15, 16, 17 like you’re kind of just starting to figure out the world of money. So if you hear a conversation like this one, and you’re like, “Yeah, you know, I was listening to his podcast, and they’re saying that money is hard to talk about, but like, so what? I am okay with going through life, not talking about things that are kind of awkward, because I want to like avoid awkward conversations. And that’s cool with me.” What would you say to that mentality of like, well, no, it’s actually really important for you to be able to talk about money. And here’s why.
Okay, there’s so many reasons, right? Like, practically, it’s really important. By talking about it more than you’re able to talk more confidently about your boundaries and limitations with your friends, like, “Hey, I love you, I want to spend time with you but like, financially, I can’t do this.” And if you’re not talking about money, how are you going to learn about it? Right? Like, it’s like with anything else.
If we’re not talking about money, you see someone on social media, they just, you know, bought a car and you don’t know that they just got inheritance from their grandfather, or that house that they just bought was paid from their parents with a down payment you’re measuring yourself to unrealistic standards if if there aren’t open conversations about it. And then also, as you’re going into the workforce, you want to make more money, right? Like you can’t make more money if you’re not having open conversations about it with your friends and coworkers. That helps everyone right? Like when you’re talking about it openly, then you’re gonna get paid more because it raises the bar for everyone. Fewer people are accepting pay lower than what they deserve.
Whether you are in tune with it, or whether you realize it or not, you have your own beliefs about money and you’re walking around every day, you go into school, you’re going to work, doing whatever, going to your friend’s house or whatever, you’re doing and those beliefs that you have about money you’re carrying them with you and all the things that you do. I mean, again, whether you realize it or not, but this is a fact, it’s what’s happening. And so talk a little bit about those beliefs that people carry with them everywhere they go. Where do those beliefs tend to come from?
You, I think a lot of them come from their families. Right? So like, what they heard from their parents growing up, how they talked about money, how money was handled in their household. It’s, it’s like anything else in life, right? You internalize those messages, and you carry them with you. But also not even, you know, it doesn’t always have to go back to your childhood, right? Like even if you experience financial trauma as an adult, if you were in a marriage where there was financial cheating or abuse or dealt with like a really big financial trauma with a friend, that can have a way of trickling into your life later without you even realizing it, right?
Um, might make you more cautious and more fearful around money.
And also, I think a lot of it just comes from our society, right? Inherently, we are human beings who, you know, want to be liked. We compare ourselves to others, because fundamentally, we want to fit in. I was scrolling through Twitter the other day, and I saw this one quote, that really stuck with me. And it was, I think, is from the author who wrote the Psychology of Money. When you see someone with a fancy car, or you see someone wearing a n expensive coat, you rarely think like, oh, wow, like, I want to be like that, right? You think, Wow, if I had that coat, then other people would think I’m cool. And so he’s making this point that there’s this paradox in that, like, people want wealth to signal to others that they should be admired. But really, you know, we’re not doing that. We’re using other people’s wealth as a benchmark for our own desire to be liked and admired.
When you buy stuff you buy it because you think people are gonna think you’re cool, right? You think like, “oh, wait, until they see me in this watch, in these Jordans, in this bag, in his brand name, whatever. But when people see you in it, they don’t think about you.
No they’re not thinking about you. We’re all just thinking about ourselves!
They’re like “oh if I had that, if I had that coat, if I had those shoes.”
We’re all so egotistical.
We really are. I think it’s made worse by social media, right? Like you find yourself scrolling through TikTok, and Instagram, and you see these really beautiful, aesthetic homes that are decorated with these influencers who have the nicest gadgets. When we are in pursuit of those things, we’re actually really in pursuit of an idea, if that makes sense, right? Like what you’re saying, maybe if I had this art piece, or that watch or whatever, then that’ll bring me closer to embodying the kind of person I want to be. Maybe that’ll make me more worldly. Maybe that’ll make me more liked. But it’s a trap I think. Because you’re not really chasing the things that might fulfill you, right? You’re going after what you think society wants you to go after so.
To your earlier point, like you were saying a lot of people’s beliefs and even problems that they have with money sometimes stems, or oftentimes stems, from the stuff that they went through growing up. A lot of times, you have to kind of deal with that money stuff. You have to understand your relationship to money first before you can confront what you’re doing with it, or the decisions that you’re making. So are there any specific tactics or activities or recommendations that you have for people who want to do this. They want to start understanding their own relationship to money, but they might not know how.
You know, I liken a lot of it to therapy, right? Like if you go to therapy, a lot of times you’re connecting the dots in your life. Like, oh, I react this way in conflict or in situations because of. You know, these needs that weren’t being met when I was younger anyway, like that, you almost want to, I mean, you can go seek out a financial therapist, but
I think you can also sit with yourself and think deeply about, okay, what messages did I get from, my parents or my family about money? How did that make me feel? Like when I think about money today, how does that make me feel in my body? Like what comes up for me? There’s also this really practical tool that I love it’s quiz from the Klontz money script inventory. And it basically says that there are these four big categories of money beliefs. They say that there are money avoiders, money worshippers, folks who identify as money status, and money vigilance. So money avoiders tend to be people who feel like they don’t deserve money or that money leads to greed and corruption. And they might even like sabotage their financial success. Money worshippers think that money is the key to happiness. Money status seekers might link their self worth to how much they make, and they really value outward displays of wealth. Those who fall under money vigilant may be like very alert and concerned with their finances. And you know, you can be a little bit of everything, right? That’s such a great resource just to be like, how do I even think about money? Like what are my values when it comes to money? So I would definitely recommend that.
Yanely: And also how you change over time because like, I bet you if I took that personality, money personality quiz like 10 years ago, I know that I would have been a money worshiper. I know that about myself because I was a mess, right? But now I’m like, more money vigilant because I’ve made so many mistakes, and I don’t want to keep falling back into those traps. But I think that over time, your money personality probably changes and also will definitely change if you do some work, if you work on it to make it better.
100%. 100%. I mean, I would just encourage everyone to put their feelings on paper. You will be surprised by like, what’s going on in your head and how you actually feel about things.
One of the things I’ve done is like, go back and look at some of the old things that I wrote when I was like, younger, and I’m like, “Oh, how I have changed. I can’t believe I wrote that.” Like, I would never write that now.
Who is she? Yeah and It’s nice to see your evolution, you know.
And when it comes to money, your your financial evolution, which I think is empowering in a lot of ways for you to know that you’ve grown. That you’re growing.
Yeah! To know you went from here to there. Like you want that feeling of success. You want to feel like yeah, there has been growth so that that can give you more momentum to move forward.
If you liked that, you can hear more of Yanely’s show, “Financially Inclined,” on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to hear our first episode featuring Wen Wen’s story, that episode is called “I Have Class Anxiety.”
Alright that’s all for our show this week. If you have any thoughts or comments or wanna share your own uncomfy money story…you can always reach me and the team through firstname.lastname@example.org
Also be sure to sign up for our weekly newsletter if you haven’t already! We’ve got great recommendations each week on what to watch and read and cook, you can sign up for that marketplace.org slash comfort.
Kate Beaton: it is just lights and smoke and flames and you’ve never seen anything like it.
Next time on This Is Uncomfortable…
Kate Beaton: and you think we’re gonna go in there and, and this is where I work.
The lengths one woman goes to escape student debt
Kate Beaton: I needed to pay this off first for my own sanity because I just could not live with this
That’s next week.
This episode was produced by Marque Greene and hosted by me. We wrote the script together.
The episode got additional support from Alice Wilder and Hannah Harris Green.
Zoë Saunders is our senior producer.
Our editor is Jasmine Romero.
Marque Greene is our digital producer, with help from Tony Wagner
Our intern is Yvonne Marquez.
Sound design and audio engineering by Drew Jostad.
Financially Inclined is hosted by Yanely Espinal.
That show’s senior producer is Hayley Hershman.
Their Video Editor is Mallory Brangan
And their sound engineer is Gary O’Keefe
Bridget Bodnar is Marketplace’s Director of Podcasts.
Francesca Levy is the Executive Director of Digital.
And the theme music for BOTH our shows is by Wonderly.
Alright, I will catch y’all next week.
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