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The economic and emotional reasons to have more kids
Bryan Caplan and his family.
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Kai Ryssdal: As I think I've mentioned a couple of times, I've got four kids -- three boys and a girl. So when a book titled "Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids" came in the mail, well, that was an interview we pretty much had to do.
Bryan Caplan is a professor of economics at George Mason University. The father of three -- twins and a baby. With more, he says, you really Bryan Caplan, welcome to the program.
Bryan Caplan: Thanks very much for having me.
Ryssdal: There was a time when kids were economic assets; you had them on the farm and they took care of you when you got old and all that stuff. Now, though, you mention in the book, that fundamentally, they're an economic drain, right?
Caplan: Rather than economic drain, I'd say consumption good. I think that's the right way to think about it. But here's what I discovered when I was looking into this common story that kids used to be an economic asset -- kids were never an economic asset. So even back in the old days of living on a farm, in terms of just getting a maximum return, you would've always been better off just investing in land. Basially with a kid, you're going and paying someone a lot more than they actually could earn if they were workers, and you know, also in terms of taking care of you in your old age, the thing to remember is, people used to die so young that there wasn't much of an old age for them to provide for you in.
Ryssdal: If they were never really an economic asset, are they a drain now or an consumption good? Has it really flipped?
Caplan: It hasn't flipped; it's basically the same as it always was, which was people have kids because they enjoy having kids. Part of what I'm trying to do is tell people how to actually get the enjoyment that they think they would like to get but often feel like they aren't because they're so stressed out, taking their kids to five different athletic events every single week.
Ryssdal: It's about happiness, then?
Caplan: It's about happiness, about needing. Another thing I look at is customer satisfaction. You know, over 90 percent of people with kids they would do it over again, so that's no big surprise. What's striking is that childless adults over 40 -- found about two-thirds of them -- said that they'd wish they had had kids when they had the chance.
Ryssdal: I'm thinking about it the wrong way -- it's not actually economics, it's an emotional expense or benefit that we're dealing with here.
Caplan: Well let's see. Modern economics basically says economics is everything. If you think about Freakonomics, that's about applying economics to unconventional areas. You know, economics isn't about dollars and cents, it's about finding out the best way to get what you want, and looking at your opportunities and figuring out the way to line your ducks up so that you are getting the most out of life. My big point is that once you realize how ineffective a lot of a parental sacrifice is, you can take a look at your kids and say, why don't we instead of me riding you and trying to change you into something you're not, why don't we just enjoy our time together?
Ryssdal: I think that's a great idea, and I'm all in favor of spending really good quality time with the kids, but the problem is a temporal one, right? You are in the moment with your seventh-grader, and he's got to pass the math test, so you have to ride him because he really doesn't like to study, and you can't really think, you know, 15 years down the road.
Caplan: Well, it may be hard. I know that when you're seeing something happening right before your eyes, it's very tempting to feel like I've got to do something about this. There is excellent evidence on the effect of parents on how well their kids do in school. But it's much less than parents imagine. And so, both on the one hand, if you weren't riding your kid, he would probably actually wind up being more responsible himself and doing more things on his own initiative. The other thing is, you can't ride your kid forever.
Ryssdal: You point out that it's really the first kid that wreaks all the havoc, man. And children two through x are just small marginal costs.
Caplan: That's right. The first kid you have, you really do adjust your lifestyle a lot.
Ryssdal: Yeah.
Caplan: So I actually had a very extreme version of this because my wife got pregnant with twins first. So I've never had only one child; I started out with two. But you know, you don't have to modify your lifestyle that much once you have additional ones.
Ryssdal: Here's the way I like to think about children two through x: the more children you have, you amortize the costs of the crib and the car seats...
Caplan: And the experience. You know how to change a diaper, you know when it's normal for a baby to be crying, when it's not normal for a baby to be crying.
Ryssdal: So are you done at three kids now?
Caplan: Well I can always hope. I would like to have more. It's not entirely up to me.
Ryssdal: True point. Bryan Caplan, he's a professor of economics at George Mason University. His book is called "Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids." Bryan, thanks a lot.
Caplan: Thanks so much for having me.
I could not help thinking about this story the last couple of days and how it made me uncomfortable and annoyed at Marketplace. I am glad others here have commented on the obvious. I doubt I will read this book. But I wish it were titled ".. selfish reasons to have 2 kids on a crowded planet".
Regarding P. Maxx's comments--I agree about the need to be non-judgmental when it comes to individuals' decisions regarding childbearing. I for one have never made a comment to a single individual about the matter, whether they've chosen 6 children or none. But I expect NPR to be willing to state truths, even if they are unpleasant to our ears, truths that I would not necessarily go around and 'preach' to friends and acquaintances. Dr. Caplan is an economist, and economics as a discipline seems to have a delusional belief that infinite growth (in the economy, in population, in "wealth and productivity") is possible. When is the last time you heard an economist speak about the need to live within limits? I wish Marketplace would interview an ecologist on the topic of having "more kids." At least Dr. Caplan's book is accurately titled, as another commenter pointed out.
As an American who tries to live a very 'green' life, my guess is that my 'carbon footprint' is nonetheless, and unfortunately, far out of proportion to what it ideally should be, simply by virtue of being an American. I have found that it's difficult to live in a way that is totally unlike the rest of one's culture. So it remains to be seen whether raising 'green children' in the US will really help the serious problems we face, though I am very sympathetic and applauding of to the desire to raise children in such a way. But on a global scale, whether it will make a difference--I am worried on this score.
Finally, on a personal note, my family knows many adults, married and unmarried,without children, and few if any seem to have regrets. If psychologists are gathering some of their statistics from people who are seeking out psychological services,it is not surprising that those with regrets of all kinds will be over-represented.
What is life really all about anyways? If caring for others brings you the greatest joy, then being a parent can be the best job in the world. Best case scenario: conscientious parents nurture the next generation to work on environmental problems, reduce carbon footprints, reduce global poverty, etc. It's all unpaid labor, but if you love this planet, it's worth it. Psychologists agree most people regret not having children. I have encountered this personally many times. Adoption is a difficult, complex road I may consider, but it is daunting for a variety of reasons. To be eco-perfect, you should actually have only one single child, not two. This is dogmatic. Parenting is a balancing act and the choice to have x number of kids is one of the most intensely personal you could ever make. I strive not to judge others but to follow my own conscience and instincts as a parent. Statistics and dogma are no substitute. A good parent loves their kids and the planet they live on.
This was a very disappointing and narcissistic segment. It confirms something I've been worried about more and more lately, that Marketplace does seem to buy into the notion that selfishness enacted by all of us on an individual level will add up to a 'good society.' No mention of the looming ecological crises caused by human overpopulation, Marketplace? It's all about OUR happiness, huh, and not the well being (and even survivability) of future generations? How I wish the author had said something along the lines of "Go ahead, adopt more of the homeless, unwanted orphans in the world." By the way, as an academic statistician, I believe his statistical quotes regarding people who would have children again, and who regret not having any, are biased--he did not provide his sources. Other surveys show different results.
Boy, what an appropriately named book. I'm amazed that with dwindling natural resources your show would promote the selfish (and environmentally irresponsible) act of having more than two children in a family. That makes me one of a very significant minority, but I don't think it's something to brag about in the current environment. At some point, societies are going to have to address the spread of humans is having on the planet--not unlike a virus.
