Make Me Smart November 28, 2023 Transcript

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Kai Ryssdal 

Like magic, I say it, Juan Carlos does it. Hey, everybody, I’m Kai Ryssdal. Welcome back to Make Me Smart, where none of us is as smart as all of us.

Nova Safo 

And I’m Nova Safo, filling in for Kimberly Adams. Thanks for joining us, everybody. It’s Tuesday, November 28. Today, we’re revisiting our climate series with a new topic, the circular economy.

Kai Ryssdal 

We have talked often, I think, on this show about consumption in the American economy. And the thing that happens when we consume things is most of the time, we throw it away when we’re done with it. And that it just adds to the waste pile, it adds to the stress on the planet, it uses up our resources. Hence, something called the circular economy, which some people believe could help us tackle the climate crisis in a way. Callie Babbitt is professor of sustainability at Rochester Institute of Technology. Professor Babbitt, welcome to the podcast.

Callie Babbitt 

Hi, there. Thanks so much for having me.

Kai Ryssdal

Circular economy a 30 second definition, if you would.

Callie Babbitt 

Well we can think about circular economy by what it’s not. And that is the traditional way of going about business, which is a linear economy, we take resources out of the ground, we use them, we make products, and then we ultimately waste them, the circular economy tries to connect both ends of that puzzle. And instead of taking resources from nature, we’re actually reducing the amount of resources that it takes to grow our economy and provide good jobs and the products we all want. We try to keep those resources in use as long as possible and maintain their value. And then when we can no longer get value out of them, at the end of life, we’re trying to close those resource loops. So instead of becoming waste, they actually become the resources that feed into the new economy.

Nova Safo 

So where does this idea come from, circular economy?

Callie Babbitt 

I think circular economy takes inspiration from a lot of sustainability concepts. I mean, we’ve always heard about reduce, reuse, recycle. But circular economy puts a new spin on this by rethinking waste as value. And a lot of this can actually take inspiration from the natural systems around us in the world. If you look at nature, it has evolved over billions of years to actually do many of the things we want to do now like cycle nutrients, carbon, water, and resources, and where the waste from one process becomes the food for another. And so much of what we try to do in circular economy is actually emulate these natural resources that are really efficient at closing the loop and not creating waste that can’t be managed.

Kai Ryssdal 

You mentioned the whole reduce, reuse, recycle thing, which is a generation or more old now that saying and that idea, but I so I did an interview about I don’t know what maybe three years ago, two years ago, in which the concept of the circular economy came up it was broached to me in it was about you know what it was about? It was about printer cartridges and what a drain those are and companies are trying to reuse those. And the circular economy came up and I expressed surprise that that was actually a thing. It was like new to me. And I guess my question is, we’ve been doing this for for a very long time, but calling it something else, right?

Callie Babbitt 

Sure, the ideas underlying the circular economy take inspiration from a lot of approaches that we’ve tried to do in the past. But there’s one really key difference. In our past approaches to dealing with waste. We were really putting a band aid on the symptoms. We were trying to say, okay, this waste exists. We’ve designed industrial processes that naturally produce waste. Now let’s do something about it so it doesn’t pile up in landfills or pollute our environment. What circular economy does that’s really different is trying to actually design waste out from the beginning. So it has to do with design of products that use less resources to start, that can be reused, repair, repurposed and remanufactured so they’re not actually becoming waste, and then only that small amount of material that’s left at the end then requires recycling. So it requires kind of a change in thinking from being reactive about resource use and waste to being proactive and designing it in from the start.

Nova Safo 

Socan I can ask for an example? For example, smartphones, how would they be remade? You know, how would they be rethought if you’re thinking of it in the terms of a circular economy?

Callie Babbitt 

Sure, smartphones are actually a great example, because they contain almost every element in the periodic table. And so when we want to think about redesigning them, we can start from the fundamental basis of what materials go into them, we can look for materials that have a lower environmental impact to manufacture or to extract from the ground and then use. And then we can also think about changing some of the ways that we design these products. So if you actually do the dirty work of cracking into a smartphone to see what’s inside, one that’s very hard to do. There’s no evident screws on the outside, there’s no point of access, where it makes sense to start taking it apart to repair, reuse it. And so right off the bat that tells us well, these could be designed to be easier to access so that consumers can actually repair them. If your screen breaks. If your battery ages to where a point where it won’t charge, well, it a lot of people will just go ahead and buy a new one, because they’re so difficult to repair. So the first step would be thinking about ways of actually reusing, or continuing to use these products as long as possible by changing their design. And then the other piece is that, you know, consumers really want sleek, fast products. And when these do end up reaching the recycling, recycling plants, they’re really hard to recycle too. They’re glued together inside, you know, the pieces inside are glued together. There’s a lot of materials that are sort of frankensteins where you’ve got things combined together that are difficult to separate and recycle. And so we can also think about designing them to be easier to disassemble, easier to recycle, and containing materials that have value in them that can actually be reused at the end of life.

Kai Ryssdal 

Okay, but here’s the catch. Love Apple, though we do those of us who are in the Apple cult or, you know, Samsung users or what have you. Those companies are for profit institutions and will not easily redesign themselves or their products to make this accessible. So I guess my question is, how we can do this? Is it a government regulation thing? Because it ain’t going to be corporate altruism, right?

Callie Babbitt 

Sure, and this is what’s so challenging about the circular economy is there’s no single silver bullet. There’s no single strategy that’s going to solve all of these problems, it really takes a concerted concerted effort across all these different actors in the system. So part of this is the education of consumers to say, hey, you know, when you are done using your phone, here are some places where you can take it to be recycled, or even better yet, here are ways of reducing the data on it getting all your personal data off, so it can be reused and retain that value as long as possible. There’s a big role for manufacturers here. And you know, there are opportunities for us to think through redesigning these products to actually make them easier and more cost effective to manufacture and easier to recycle at the end of life. And then there’s certainly a role for policy. One of the challenges in the United States following on the example of smartphones is there’s no federal policy requiring these be recycled, 25 states and DC have laws, they’re all a little bit different, making it even harder for manufacturers to comply.

Kai Ryssdal 

Sorry, so sorry, 25 states have laws that we have to recycle our smartphones. Is California because I’m in deep trouble?

Callie Babbitt 

Well that and that’s that’s exactly the problem is because there you have this patchwork of policies, and consumers don’t really understand what’s going on. And so there are a lot of ways to you can actually be part of this system. But we’re missing the education and the awareness of these solutions to actually each of us to take action to be part of it.

Nova Safo 

So, a lot of what you said though, sounds really familiar. Recycling phones, a lot of people do that. You go to certain stores, there’s, before you enter the store, there’s a bins for electronic waste recycling. People are repairing their own devices to some extent, you know, right to repair is something I think we’re all familiar with. At this point, California just passed a law that will take effect next July, Apple supported it. How far along are we here? It sounds like we’ve made significant progress.

Callie Babbitt 

Well, I think that’s what’s so interesting about this is we do see progress being made in some areas. But circular economy is not just about recycling, it’s really this comprehensive suite of efforts. And so technologically, the problems that we can solve through technology are perhaps those that are slightly more easy to address. But some of these have to be addressed through behavior change, and as you mentioned, changing business models. So for example, if we think about ways of making this attractive to business, it’s about creating new value streams. So this might be changing business models to move away from selling a product to instead selling a service. One classic example of this is power tools. If you think about the number of times in a given year that you use your handheld power drill at home, unless you’re a carpenter, or actively doing repairs or renovations, the number of times probably can count on one hand. So the question is, do you really need to own a power drill? Or do you just need to have access to using it when you need it? So this implies ideas like the sharing economy, which is where we might be sharing products and resources as we need them, or where companies might be thinking about selling services, rather than goods that have these physical environmental impacts.

Kai Ryssdal 

So what are the limits to a circular economy? Right? I mean, yes, you can get almost all the ways that you can get it all right?

Callie Babbitt 

Absolutely, there’s always going to be some technical limits. And we can thank the laws of thermodynamics for that. When anytime that you are changing, say energy from one form or the other, anytime we’re processing material, it’s never going to be 100% efficient. The other issue that comes up, and especially when we start talking about climate, is that a number of the strategies we try to put in place actually have tradeoffs. So when we think about trying to reach climate targets, like reducing our reliance on fossil fuels, electrifying vehicles, increasing the adoption of renewable energy, all of those technologies require materials, many of those materials are scarce. They’re not easily available in our existing mining infrastructure. Or sometimes they’re available in countries where there’s geopolitical barriers to getting a steady stream. And so when we start thinking about trying to meet climate goals, it actually might shift us away from some of these circular economy targets, unless we’re effectively designing this in to start. And that might be anything from doing fundamental material science, to find substitutes for scarce materials. It might be about designing and recycling policies and infrastructures so that we’re not putting these renewable energy technologies out into the world without a system in place to recover them at end of life. And a big part of it is also about education and policy, so that all of these things are happening in harmony.

Nova Safo 

All right. That’s a lot to think about. Callie Babbitt, Professor of sustainability at Rochester Institute of Technology. Thank you for schooling us today.

Kai Ryssdal 

Appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

Callie Babbitt 

Thanks a lot. Great to talk to you.

Kai Ryssdal 

I learned something, I learned something.

Nova Safo 

She had me for most of that, except for the part where you need, we should have visible screws and smartphones, as opposed to being secured and glued.

Kai Ryssdal

You’re not going there?

Nova Safo

No, I’m sorry. We’ll have to think of something else on that. But yes, on everything else. Yeah. And it reminded me of this wonderful photo that actually goes around the internet every so often from from a Daily Mail article in 2013, about a gentleman who put together seeds and water and soil and seal the big glass bottle. And it’s been a self-sustaining ecosystem. I would have you seen that picture? It’s wonderful picture.

Kai Ryssdal

Yes. Yeah.

Nova Safo

And it’s kind of like the same idea that we can learn from nature and create the self-sustaining, be more self-sustaining.

Kai Ryssdal 

That’s right. That’s right. You take it from here Nova.

Nova Safo 

It’s my turn. Sorry. We want to hear from you. Let us know what you think about the circular economy as a climate solution. We’re at 508-827-6278, also known as 508-U-B-SMART. Isn’t that smart? We’ll be right back.

Kai Ryssdal 

It is smart. I think Bridget Bodnar gets the credit for that phone number. Anyway, here we go. It’s time for some news. What do you got?

Nova Safo 

Let’s do it, kay. How man, how many predictions have we gotten about which way, if interest rates are gonna get cut anytime now?. And, and a recession is coming anytime now. The latest Wall Street Journal article I saw this morning that made me chuckle was interest rates are coming, cuts are coming soon whether there is a recession or not.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah.

Nova Safo 

More wishful thinking. So apparently, there’s some evidence that that investors are betting that we’re nearing the end of that cycle. And then some easing is on its way, no matter what, I’m not sure if there’s enough evidence to support this. But there you go. I will also say that I found it interesting that Deutsche Bank economists came out yesterday and this is the news this morning, because it was late yesterday, they did this kind of sticking their neck outs and saying, we’re still going to have a recession. It’s coming with you know, and the and the Federal Reserve, it will be a mild one. And the Federal Reserve will need to cut interest rates in the first half of next year.

Kai Ryssdal 

No way. No way, no way, no way.

Nova Safo 

I know, within the first half. That’s what it says. That’s what they’re, that’s really soon. I was surprised that they were willing to say that, but there you go. Conference for today,

Kai Ryssdal

A thousand percent not happening.

Nova Safo

Conference for today is still sticking to its recession call as well in its Consumer Confidence Report. It’s there you go. Despite all evidence.

Kai Ryssdal 

We shall see. You got another one or are you just gonna go with that one?

Nova Safo 

I do I do. And Kai, did you get sucked into the whole Black Friday?

Kai Ryssdal 

You know, I did not. It was really funny. I was so on Black Friday, I was standing in the kitchen, stripping the turkey carcass and my entire family and my mother-in-law. My mother, actually not my mother-in-law. Were sitting in the family room, on their computers going through Black Friday stuff. And I’m like, You guys get a life. Well, yeah. They’re, they’re all big bargain hunters. And I’m like, yeah, whatever.

Nova Safo 

Me too. I got completely sucked in. I bought so much clothes.

Kai Ryssdal

Did you really?

Nova Safo

I did. I did. But what I found interesting was this morning, Amazon put out a list of what kind of is what the top selling products are, of course, some of them are Amazon products, because allegedly, they tend to prioritize their products in front of people’s eyes. But the number one selling thing is something called snail mucin 96% power.

Kai Ryssdal

Ew.

Nova Safo

So this has become a thing where it’s basically like a face lotion. Made with snail secretion traits filtrates. It apparently helps reduce fine lines and improved dull skin. I don’t know if I could be paid enough money to put that on my face.

Kai Ryssdal 

Not enough money. Not in the world.

Nova Safo 

Here you go top selling product.

Kai Ryssdal 

We’re gonna, we’re gonna end the news brief of this part of the podcast today, right there with snail mucin mucus and we’re gonna go straight into the mailbag.

Mailbag

Hi Kai and Kimberly. This is Godfrey from San Francisco. Jessie from Charleston, South Carolina. And I have a follow up question. It has me thinking and feeling a lot of things.

Nova Safo 

Alright, so in our recent episode about carbon credits, our guest talked about how trees are the only real carbon capture tech we have at scale. And we got a message about that about deforestation.

Chuck

This is Chuck in Phoenix. Recently, we had to make me smile related to this that Brazil’s deforestation rate had fallen significantly. But what that means is that only 193 square miles of rain forest were cleared during the month of July. I know how hard you work to explain that when the rate of inflation comes down, it doesn’t mean that the prices fall. And as we work to figure out how to remove the carbon from the air, at the same time, as we find green sources of energy, we’ve got a big challenge on our hands.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, we sure do. Sure do. That’s a really good point.

Nova Safo 

Yeah, 193 square miles, according to Wikipedia is about the size of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Kai Ryssdal 

By the way, news you can use. Alright, one more. Last week, I mentioned an Op-ed about why you should not make your family pick you up from the airport. We got this from Levi.

Levi

So I travel a lot. And if someone’s coming to pick me up, I will often take either like an airport shuttle or an Uber to a nearby hotel or restaurant or something so that my family member doesn’t have to get stuck in terminal traffic and then you know, pay tolls or have to deal with that one person who manages to block like three lanes even though the person they’re bringing up isn’t even on the ground yet. It makes it easier on everyone.

Kai Ryssdal 

Amen, brother. Amen. And point of fact, the child in question who we went to pick up the airport, actually my wife did the the driving on that one. She made him walk from terminal five at LAX all the way up to terminal seven, you know holding his bag just so she didn’t have to deal with that whole big U at LAX on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. Yeah, so it works.

Nova Safo 

Also, that is a really good hack to get through, I had never thought of it and why not? Yes, total really smart.

Kai Ryssdal 

Totally. Yeah. Before we go, we will leave you as we always do with this week’s answer to the Make Me Smart question, what is something you thought you knew but later found out you’re wrong about this one comes from our intern Niloufar Shahbandi.

Niloufar Shahbandi

I always thought that I need to have an immediate response to any problems that were thrown my way. Whether it was a personal dilemma or if my friends and family were sharing an ongoing issue in their life, my mind would start scrambling in a million directions to give what I thought would be the perfect response. But I’ve found that sometimes it’s okay to not say anything and try to be a better listener instead. Not every problem has an instant solution and it’s okay to sit with those uncomfortable feelings sometimes and wait until you have a better response.

Kai Ryssdal 

Don’t do something, just sit there sometimes, that is okay.

Nova Safo 

It took me a lot more years to figure that out. That’s a really..

Kai Ryssdal

Yeah totally. We should also say Niloufar’s last day is this Friday. And so you know, we’ll say a proper goodbye on Friday but I just want to get that in everybody’s brain pan. That her internship with us is coming to an end. We are coming to an end as well. But not until we do this. It is Giving Tuesday today. I don’t know if you know this, but Marketplace is the most widely listened to program on business in the economy, public or private broadcasting commercial or public television, radio or television. And we cannot do without you. So that is why we are here now asking for $100,000 today if we do get that six figure amount in donations from individuals, Marketplace Investors Challenge Fund will unlock another unlock rather another additional $100,000. And we need the money.

Nova Safo 

We do and these funds are critical. They help us produce the show every weekday, we can do this if we all come together and chip it and people take a few minutes give right now. And check out our new thank you gifts including wool socks, which look really cool, nice marketplace.org/gift smart or follow the link in the show notes.

Kai Ryssdal 

Today’s episode of this podcast which is called Make Me Smart was produced by our intern Niloufar Shahbandi with some help from Courtney Bergsieker. Ellen Rolfes writes our newsletter. Today’s program is engineered by Juan Carlos Torrado mission. Qiguan is going to mix it down later.

Nova Safo 

And Ben Tolliday and Daniel Ramirez composed our theme music. Our senior producer is Marissa Cabrera. Bridget Bodnar is the director of podcasts. Francesca Levy is the executive producer of digital and Marketplaces Vice President and General Manager and the boss of all of us is Neal Scarbrough.