Make Me Smart March 5, 2024 Transcript

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Kai Ryssdal 

Hi everyone, I’m Kai Ryssdal. Welcome back to Make Me Smart, where none of us is as smart as all of us.

Kimberly Adams 

And I’m Kimberly Adams. Thank you for joining us, everybody. It’s Super Tuesday, March the fifth. And today, we’re going to talk about something very politics related, populism and populist movements that are gaining popularity in democracies all over the world, especially in European countries like Italy and Poland, and then in India, over here in the United States potentially.

Kai Ryssdal 

So, we’re going to talk populism, what it is, why it’s happening, and where it might lead things actually here and globally. So, the person who is going to make us smart about all this is Bart Bonikowski. He’s a professor of sociology and politics at NYU. New York University. Professor, welcome to the podcast.

Bart Bonikowski 

Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

Kai Ryssdal 

Let us start definitionally, shall we. What is populism?

Bart Bonikowski 

Great, that’s a good place to start. Populism as a term referring to say, a politician like Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen in France, is a little bit of a misnomer actually for two reasons. I would say first of all, populism is found both on the left and the right. So, when we use it to refer solely to Trump let’s say, it’s a little bit confusing at times. And the second reason why it’s a bit of a misnomer is that it’s only one element in the politics of right-wing politicians like Trump or Le Pen or others. So, let me let me give you a very brief definition of populism itself, and then say a little more about the other elements that we should be thinking about. So, populism is really a way of doing politics that vilify some sort of an elite and glorifies the people writ large. So, on the right, often the elites that are vilified are politicians, bureaucrats. On the left, however, it’s typically business leaders, you know, Wall Street fat cats, sometimes union leaders. So, the elites that are that are the target of critique on populist left and five minutes right are quite different. But in both cases, there is a sense that power needs to be restored. Political power needs to be restored to the people.

Kimberly Adams 

Well, help me. I actually didn’t realize about the distribution on both the right and the left. So, can you talk a little bit more about how populism shows up on the left if we understand that Trump is sort of an example of populism on the right, how does it show up on the left?

Bart Bonikowski 

Of course. The term has been used to label some policies and campaign proposals by Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and others. So, you hear this term used on both the left and the right. But I think what’s important to remember is that using that term on its own tends to conflate very different kinds of politics, right? Left wing populism for most part, and it’s American and European inflections, is really about challenging economic inequality about redistribution. So, for this reason, the elites that are often vilified are economic elites, right? Our billionaires or CEOs, Wall Street leaders, and so forth. And often this critique is systemic, right? The fact that the system is rigged in favor of the rich. On the right, populism is something quite different, actually. There, the critique is more fundamentally a critique of the political system as it exists. And what’s really important is that populism is a company on the right by ethnonationalism, by definition of the nation as rightfully belonging to the ethnic, racial, religious majority. It is also quite often accompanied on the right by authoritarianism, which is a way of governing that essentially disregards and often directly undermines democratic institutions, liberal democratic institutions and norms. So, if you want to think about right wing populism as a kind of a simplistic campaign package roughly what they say is, “Look, the nation is not what it used to be. We have lost our way. We’re going downhill.” The problem, the reason that this is happening, they point the finger are the current elites, and minorities that are in cahoots with them. And the solution is elect me, and I may have to take some extraordinary measures to get us back on track. But I can do it, right? I can restore the nation to its former greatness where you, and I can say who you is here, where you are back at the center of the nation, you’re back in control, back in political power that you deserve, is rightfully yours.

Kai Ryssdal 

Just to say that which shall not be named. That’s what we have here in the Trump campaign, right? It’s a populist campaign and all of those elements.

Bart Bonikowski 

Absolutely. It’s a populist campaign, but perhaps even more importantly, it’s an ethnonationalist campaign with strong authoritarian overtones. And so, I think the problem with using populism as this catch all phrase that we use in the media often in sort of everyday talk to identify right-wing radicals. It’s not a sufficient term, and it’s sort of all too easily confused as the left with the right. I think what we really should be thinking about, you know, there’s no perfect label for these parties. I tend to use the term radical right. And the idea there is that the radical right combines populism with ethnonationalism and with authoritarianism. And what’s interesting is you find the same kind of recipe across very different countries. So, you see it in the United States. You see it in the UK. You see it in the Netherlands, France, Poland, Hungary, Turkey, Russia, in some ways, has been doing this for a long time. But also, as you pointed out at the beginning. Brazil, in India, in the Philippines, and so on. So, the number of cases is growing rapidly to the point where there are relatively few liberal democracies that don’t have some sort of a presence of a populist radical right party or candidate.

Kimberly Adams 

So, let’s stay focused on the right-wing populism here in the United States. How far back does the rise of this type of populism go here in the US? And why does it seem to sort of be coming into the public consciousness now?

Bart Bonikowski 

Sure, that’s a great question. I mean, there are antecedents to this form of politics that go way back and most of the countries in question, including the United States. Whether, you know, I mean, whether you go back to sort of the racially segregated white supremacist order of the US that stood for a long time in its history. Whether you go to more specifically the John Birch Society. Whether you basically kind of the backlash to the civil rights movement is when a lot of this this rhetoric awakened. And then you have, you know, you have kind of some of these currents coming up and up again throughout history after that. So, you know, you had candidates in the 90s, who were who were pursuing this kind of project. But more recently, I think we should really date this back to maybe around 9/11 or so. Actually, my research suggests that 9/11 was a pretty important moment for this. After that, you’ve got the Tea Party. You’ve got Sarah Palin’s candidacy, which were sort of precursors to Trump. Similar rhetoric in some ways, similar demographic that was captured. The imagination was captured by these by these political mobilization efforts. And Trump basically follows in the footsteps of these folks, but perfects the recipe, you know, for all the critiques one can have of him what he is quite good at, is feeling the crowd, you know, attempting various rhetorical strategies, seeing what sticks, and then going with what sticks.

Kai Ryssdal 

Could you talk for a minute about the economic underpinnings of the rise of populism, specifically here in the United States?

Bart Bonikowski 

Sure, there is a tendency among academics who study this topic to try and find the single cause that explains the rise of radical right populism across many cases. I think that’s futile. You know, what we see is these parties and leaders becoming present and gaining ground in a wide range of countries with very different starting conditions. So, a single explanation is unlikely to gain purchase on all of that. In some countries, economic crises matter. In other countries, certainly industrialization, economic globalization, offshoring of jobs. But in other countries, it’s really about demographic changes, immigration, and refugee crises. To some degree, it’s about cultural change. So, the way I like to think about it, if we want to understand why this is happening, is that across a wide range of countries, there’s rapid social and economic and cultural change for in a variety of manifestations. And that change is creating some way, a sense of anxiety among ethnic, racial, and religious majorities. And what opportunistic politicians do is they take these fears, these anxieties, and they sort of bundle it up, they package it up, and tell these folks, “Listen, you shouldn’t be afraid. You should be worried about your future in the future, this country, for all of the reasons, all of these changes that are happening to you are a problem.” And then they point the finger, and they blame, again, elites and minorities for it and offer themselves as a solution. So, I think the way to think about causes is that we should really be thinking of this in a multi-causal framework. There are all sorts of different shocks and changes that are happening across these different countries, but the way that they’re funneled through a radical right populist mobilization is quite similar across countries with similar results. And the economy is part of that. So certainly, in the United States, we know that the industrialization, the offshoring of jobs, the China trade shock, all of that has been shown by economists matter for the success of radical right actors. But there are other things that matter as well. It’s really about kind of a bundling of a wide range of fears and anxieties.

Kimberly Adams 

There are so many elections happening all over the world this year. Can you sort of give the landscape of how populism is showing up in these elections and what that might mean for the globe moving forward?

Bart Bonikowski 

Sure. I mean, it’s really hard to predict how populism is going to affect any given election, of course. I think one thing we can conclude is that it’s here, and it’s here to stay. Right? So, there isn’t sort of a linear wave where populists are gaining ground everywhere. They succeed in fits and starts, and sometimes they lose. But what I think has become quite clear is that they have become part of the political landscape in the vast majority of liberal democracies. So, we can come back to the upcoming elections in a minute. But you know, one thing to say is that one populist party that was in power for quite a long time, and everyone thought was going to destroy democracy in Poland, which is the Law and Justice Party. The peace party was recently kicked out of office against all odds, right? This was a party that had already corrupted the political system. It’s sort of followed Viktor Orbán, this is the Hungarian leader. His recipe for subjugating the media, for reforming, and in some ways corrupting the Supreme Court and so forth. And yet, in an election at the kind of 11th hour, the public turned out in mass numbers and kicked them out of office. So, Poland has another lease on life. Democracy has another lease of life. And I say this because I think it’s important to know that again, it’s not a foregone conclusion, the populists are going to keep winning. They’re just here, and they’re here to stay.

Kai Ryssdal 

So. No, no, please go ahead. Finish your thought, and then I’ll jump in.

Bart Bonikowski 

I was just going to say, I mean, the election that matters, I think the most a lot of our listeners right now is the US election. And that’s one where we are really at the brink of either a second term by a politician whose quite clearly a populist radical right politician with all the aspirations and dangers that involves. And then we have kind of mainstream, you know, center left politician in Joe Biden, and it’s a contest between the parties, but just as it was in the last couple of elections, it’s also a contest for the future of the country.

Kai Ryssdal 

Right? So, with that in mind, and with the acknowledgement that you’re a sociologist and a political scientist, not a political practitioner. Let’s say the Biden campaign calls you and says, “Professor Bonikowski, we’ve been reading your work. We’re really interested. What should we do in this coming election when we’re faced with an immensely popular right-wing populist?

Bart Bonikowski 

If I had brilliant ideas, I probably would be getting that phone call. It’s a really tough nut to crack. Look, my belief is that if this election were the same candidates was happening 20 years ago, there’ll be no question about Biden’s likely victory. He’s got all of the advantages that political scientists will tell you matter. He’s an incumbent. The economy is doing very well. Inflation has been largely defeated as a problem. It’s all going relatively well. And yet, no matter what he’s doing, his poll numbers are abysmal. And the charges, you know, the charges that are leveled against him in terms of age, and so forth are sticking, even if they’re not sticking against this almost equally old opponents. And so, yeah, you know, I think they’re doing what they can, and my guess is that they have a few other tricks and that they’re going to unroll soon. I think winning or running on the successes of the Biden administration is what it should be doing, right? The campaign can be simply reactive and be an anti-Trump campaign. Joe Biden is an incumbent president with a proven track record. And I think that, you know, illustrating that track record, combined with reminding people about the dangers of a Trump presidency because I think people will have a short term memory and have forgotten some of the most egregious policies of Trump when he was in office, as well as really anything Biden will do this, highlighting what’s at stake. This is not about Republicans versus Democrats at this point. I wish it were. That’s what a healthy election should be. It’s about the party that stands for democracy, and a party that stands for potentially authoritarianism and ethnonationalism. So, it’s not a typical normal election as in years past. My guess is that the Biden campaign is just waiting. And as we get closer to election day, when people start tuning in, because it’s still quite early, the messaging will change. On the other hand, we know that Democrats haven’t always been great at messaging. So, whether they can sort of capture. Republicans have a strong advantage of messaging. They’re just very good at it. And maybe that’s partly because their messages lend themselves to sound bites better than Democrats. But, you know, some balance between look what we’ve accomplished, what look what we have done with look where the danger is. My guess is that’s probably what they will do, and we’ll see how it goes. But I will say one thing that I am in no way pollyannish about what’s going to happen in November. I mean, it’s really anyone’s guess. I think most political scientists have stopped predicting at this point. But the chance is 50/50, which is just not very helpful for anyone.

Kai Ryssdal 

Bart Bonikowski at NYU. Sociology and politics is what he does. Professor, thanks for your time, sir. I appreciate it.

Bart Bonikowski 

My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, so a couple of thoughts. The whole left-wing populism was really interesting.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah, it was. I hadn’t even thought about that.

Kai Ryssdal

Also, that little bit there at the end where he said, you know, when people start tuning in. For you and me and people who, you know, are in and of the news every single day, it feels like there’s been going on forever. And I’m like, well, you mean, people aren’t paying attention yet? And of course, he’s right.

Kimberly Adams 

I was, I don’t. Oh, I was listening to Hidden Brain the other day, which is a wonderful podcast. And Shankar Vedantam was talking about how there’s all of this research showing that the vast majority of people just do not care about politics. They don’t want to talk about it. And the people who do care and do pay attention, not only do they talk about it more, but they tend to hold more extreme opinions and are louder about it. And so that creates this sort of narrative, an image that everyone is deeply enmeshed in it. And I just, it was such an interesting discussion. We can include a link in the show notes, but, you know, yeah, I also was, I’m very, I’m sitting here thinking about that whole left wing, populism part of it, that it’s a similar lens, but applied so differently, right? And I wouldn’t imagine that I’d be lumping you know, kind of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump in the same bucket in any capacity, but here we go. But what do you all think of populist movements and the rise there of? Or is this new information for you? Or have you been thinking deeply about populism and have thoughts to share? 508-827-6278, also known as 508-U-B-SMART. You can give us a call or send us a voice memo and emails and all that stuff. But regardless, we’ll be right back.

Kai Ryssdal 

We got to play Jay Siebold on the talkback, man. We just gotta get that into the program. Oh, my goodness.

Kimberly Adams 

Otherwise, it’s just like we’re randomly chuckling.

Kai Ryssdal 

That’s right. All right. We are back. News, Kimberly Adams, go.

Kimberly Adams 

So, there is a very big cybersecurity issue playing out in the health care system right now. It’s a massive hack of a payment processor that’s called Change Healthcare that apparently processes like half of the medical billing in this country. That believed to process, according to The Washington Post, “50% of the medical claims in the United States. But most people won’t know if the hack affected their medical data until they try to fill a prescription or visit a doctor.” So, it’s this giant. It’s been going on for a couple of weeks now. UnitedHealth Insurance owns the company, but it manages claims from a bunch of different providers, totaling more than like, $1.5 trillion per year. We’re talking tens of thousands of insurance companies, doctors, pharmacists. And some people are already running into problems because of this hack. I mean, there are reports that United Health is potentially paying money to get their data back, but you know, it’s a ransomware attack. And I’m looking at a Wall Street Journal article that Optum said, which is another UnitedHealth Group owned company said it was forced to disconnect over 100 systems at its Change Healthcare unit. Yes.

Kai Ryssdal 

I’m wowing because  my personal physician is a member of the Optum group and I’m like, I need a physical and I’m going to call and I haven’t been able to get through the last couple of days.

Kimberly Adams 

Well, I wasn’t, I’ve sort of been seeing this bubble up in the background, but the reason the story caught my eye today was because it was saying that, you know, you’re not really going to know about this until it matters. And I got a call, like, I have a recurring prescription. And a couple weeks ago, randomly, they’re like, oh, you can’t refill it at the existing pharmacy anymore. It has to go to this other pharmacy. And then that pharmacy called me, and they had the wrong address for me. And they were like, we can’t fill it. We’re having problems with the processing. And now I’m like, is this why I’m having this problem. And now, United is asking the federal government to step in, as well as some members of Congress are asking, according to the Wall Street Journal. “They want Medicare and Medicaid to advance payments amid of revenue crunch.” Because basically, a lot of these providers aren’t getting paid. They’re furloughing people. And so, “the American Hospital Association wrote congressional leaders Monday to plead for government assistance. The trade groups at Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services should begin issuing advanced payments to providers to lessen the financial burden they face.” And, you know, this is wild. It’s such a huge thing. And there’s all these stories in both the Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal and all the other places covering it, of individual people who can’t get their prescriptions filled. Providers who are like temporarily closing offices. Here’s what really kind of, I find this deeply interesting because health insurance companies are some of the most profitable businesses out there. They very famously charge a lot of money for the services, and we do not get the same health care outcomes for much cheaper health care in other countries. Anyway. So, UnitedHealth is offering loans to people, to some of its providers, to try to carry them over. So, I’m just going to read a little bit from this Wall Street Journal article. “The complexity of how the loan program is structured means some smaller providers are finding the loans Optum has offered aren’t anywhere close to what they need. Diana Holmes, a clinical social worker in private practice in Attleboro, Massachusetts has around $4,000 in unpaid billings. After going through the steps to determine her eligibility for Optum’s program, she was offered a $20 loan, she said. Jenna Wolfson, a licensed clinical social worker in Felton, California, who bills about $8,000 a month to insurers, said she was offered a loan of $10. UnitedHealth says the loans, which are interest- and fee-free, must be repaid once normal operations resume.” Anyway, this is a story that I should have been following more closely. But wow, it’s a big deal. And it’s just another reminder that we should all be paying attention to those cybersecurity trends.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, do not pick up that thumb drive in the parking lot and put it in your laptop. Just don’t do that.

Kimberly Adams

Exactly, exactly.

Kai Ryssdal

Oh, my goodness.

Kimberly Adams 

And it is not really an urgent email from your CEO asking for a wire transfer.

Kai Ryssdal 

That’s fake. I just. Totally. Anything that looks fishy, I just kind of no pun intended, phishing, I just delete it. I’m like, it’s out of here. Forget it. I don’t care if it is important. If it’s that important, they’ll get me back. Find me another way. Right? So, here’s mine. It’s a quickie. It’s globally macroeconomic. And you just need to be on your toes. There is no help coming for the Chinese economy. We’ve talked about it being somewhat challenged with property overhangs, debt overhangs, and consumers being not all that thrilled. I say this because the National People’s Congress started today in Beijing, it is their admittedly rubber stamp legislative session that happens once a year and there are big speeches, including by the Premier Li Qiang, who basically said today there is no help coming. Here’s a quote from The New York Times: “Analysis officials signaled that they are not ready for any showstopping moves to revive an economy bettered by a property crisis, the loss of consumer confidence and financial pressures of indebted local governments. Nevertheless, Beijing does expect the Chinese economy to grow 5%.” Now, you have to take all Chinese government’s statistics about the economy with a gigantic boulder of salt. So, they are not going to grow 5%, but it’s not a good thing for the global economy if the Chinese economy is stuck, and it kind of is stuck right now. It looks to be stuck next year too. And it just goes to highlight how well the American economy’s doing actually if you know, if I can go there for like two seconds. The American economy globally is doing really, really well.

Kimberly Adams 

I’m sorry, I’m lost in my visualization of the giant boulder of salt.

Kai Ryssdal

Giant boulder. A giant boulder of salt.

Kimberly Adams

Manifested in my brain as like, the pink Himalayan Sea salt.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, that’d be all right. Anyway, here we go.

Kimberly Adams 

All right, that is it for the news. Let us move on to the mailbag.

Mailbag

Hi Kai and Kimberly. This is Godfrey from San Francisco, Jessie from Charleston, South Carolina. And I have a follow up question. It has me thinking and feeling a lot of things.

Kimberly Adams 

Okay, last week, Kai and the rest of the team indulged me, and we talked about anime.

Kai Ryssdal 

No, it was great. We were not indulging you at all. I was totally fascinated the whole time.

Kimberly Adams 

I’m so glad that everybody liked it. It was a lot of fun for me. And apparently it was a lot of fun for y’all. Because we asked many of you. We asked how many of you got into anime and what you’re watching right now, and we heard from a bunch of you. So, let’s roll the tape.

Anime Montage

Right now, I’m enjoying the newest series on Netflix, “Delicious in Dungeon,” an enjoyable swords and sorcery comedy action centering on cooking. This might not be everybody’s cup of tea, but for the econ nerds out there, I would recommend the anime “7th Time Loop.” How often does romantic heroine drop lines about using targeted economic activity to improve the social welfare of the poor while also creating new market opportunities? My favorite manga series is “One Piece,” and I’m currently caught up with all 1,108 chapters of it. Yes, I know. And then of course, anything by Hayao Miyazaki. I love it. It’s a beautiful art form. Reallly cool to see Kimberly bring out her inner fan girl for this. And Kimberly, what animes do you recommend? Thanks for making me smarter.

Kimberly Adams 

Oh, I love that. That was Ben, Brecon, Alex in Los Angeles, Mike in Rockford, and Ming in Beijing. And of those, I’m watching “7th Time Loop.” Yes, it has a ton of economic themes, and it’s very interesting. And I’m also a big fan of the Miyazaki films of course, and for those who want to know what I’m watching because I’ve been getting a lot of emails and messages on social media about this. I’m actually going to put some of the things that I’m watching or that I have watched in our Make Me Smart newsletter this week, so you have to subscribe in order to get the get the details.

Kai Ryssdal 

Sorry, super quick. There was a mention there of manga. What is manga versus anime?

Kimberly Adams 

Manga is the book form. So, most of the anime shows started off as like, manga books, which are like very graphic like elaborate calm. Yeah, graphic novels. Probably better than a comic book. I actually never really got into manga. I just went straight to anime usually, often people go, they get into manga and then we’ll watch the anime. But no, just the anime for me.

Kai Ryssdal 

Not that it’s any of my business, but since we’re on it, how old were you when you got into anime?

Kimberly Adams 

Oh, I was a full adult.

Kai Ryssdal

Oh, interesting. What was it? What kicked you off?

Kimberly Adams

I think it was Yahshua on Cartoon Network. And then I mean, to the extent that Powerpuff Girls and Johnny Bravo were anime, but not really those are not, not in that style. But no. Yahshua is the first one I can think of. But it wasn’t until I was well into my 20s. Yeah. And I watched this show called Mushi-Shi that was on Hulu. And that was the first time I really kind of got into it as a genre. And then I didn’t really start watching it in volume until I moved back to the US in 2015. And then I’ve been kind of watching a lot. Watch it a lot.

Kai Ryssdal 

And now we know. All right. Before we go, we are going to do what we do every week. Leave you with this week’s answer to the Make Me Smart question. What is something you thought you knew, but later found out you were wrong about? This week’s answer comes to us from listener and artist and fan of the show Audie Norman. He wrote that anime-inspired art that we, I think we’ve put it on our show page Bridget talks about it at the top of the podcast. I don’t know if she’s got the ink to make that happen. Anyway, here’s Audie.

Audie Norman

I thought I knew what art is. Art is something humans have created to express themselves. But now humans aren’t the only ones making art. Now AI, computers, technology programs are creating art as well. Now my fellow human artists aren’t happy about it. And I agree, it’s not great for those of us who make our living or part of our living from our art. And that’s the struggle for artists now, not just having to compete with another human artist, but a technological one. The history of technology advancing has come for the artist. Still, there’s something we can argue that AI art tends to lack, and most people would say it’s a soul. Okay, so I’m off my soapbox, and if you want and or need some original art, hit me up.

Kimberly Adams 

And please, everyone, make sure you’re paying for your art. Don’t just download the images online, pay for the art, pay the artists, sign up for the Patreon or whatever. And one of the things I’ve been fortunate to do, since I’m moved back is like, I’ve started buying, like pieces of art that, you know, from local artists, from other artists who I like, encounter online. And there’s something special about being able to look at something beautiful on a daily basis, and it doesn’t have to be expensive, but it’s really a nice thing. And yeah, the artists really need our support right now.

Kai Ryssdal 

Absolutely. Amen.

Kimberly Adams 

Yes. All right. That is it for us today. But before we go, do not forget to check out our “Unofficial State Cocktails” zine that we had the newsletter last week if you haven’t already. It has some of our favorite state-themed cocktail recipes sent in by listeners. And to get a copy of that zine, you can go ahead and subscribe to our newsletter, marketplace.org/smarter. And again, I’m going to be putting some of my anime recs this week if Ellen still allows me to.

Kai Ryssdal 

Make Me Smart is produced by Courtney Bergsieker. Ellen Rolfes writes our newsletter. Today’s program was engineered by Jay Siebold. Mingxin Qiguan is going to mix it down later. Thalia Menchaca is our intern.

Kimberly Adams 

Ben Tolliday and Daniel Ramirez composed our theme music. Our senior producer is Marissa Cabrera. Bridget Bodnar is the director of podcasts. Francesca Levy is the executive director of Digital. And Marketplace’s Vice President and General Manager is Neal Scarbrough.