ChatGPT’s growing carbon footprint

Make Me Smart May 3, 2023 Transcript

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Kai Ryssdal 

Hey everybody I’m Kai Ryssdal. Welcome back to make me smart where we make today make sense.

Kimberly Adams 

And I’m Kimberly Adams, this is what do you want to know Wednesday, which is the day that we get to answer your questions. So if you do have a question that you’d like us to answer to help us all get smarter, you can leave us a voicemail at 508-UB-SMART or you can email us at makemesmart@marketplace.org.

Kai Ryssdal 

Question number one, here we go. It’s an email. Neil in New Jersey wants to know this: “we all know,” he writes “that the crypto world uses an incredible amount of energy. But I am wondering how to large language models” that is to say ChatGPT and the like “and crypto compare. Are they of the same scale?” I’m thinking this one’s for you.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah, it’s… we don’t know yet for sure. But it’s definitely a good question because they do kind of similar things. So Marketplace Tech recently had a climate researcher for an AI company on the show to talk about AI’s environmental impact. And that researcher said that just the process of training an earlier version of ChatGPT admitted roughly the same amount of CO2 as a gas car driving more than a million miles. AKA a lot of emissions.

Kai Ryssdal 

Oh wow no. That’s very bad. That’s very bad.

Kimberly Adams 

Right? And that’s because these large language models do take a lot of energy and natural resources to produce the super special high-end chips that they need to operate, energy to run the computers to train the models, and then you’re keeping those models up and running on cloud servers. So if you think about it, every time somebody puts a prompt into ChatGPT, a computer somewhere is you know, not really anymore because they don’t really work like they used to. That’s an old person reference anyway. But you know, doing the things that it does that burns energy to make those calculations and it does all add up. And yes, that feels very similar to crypto and you know, the calculations that you have to run to mine cryptocurrencies. Now then, when it comes to crypto Etherum a while back was able to drastically, and by drastically I mean by like upwards of 90%, cut their energy use by changing the way that their coins are mined. Bitcoin, which is a much more popular cryptocurrency still has a super heavy environmental footprint and hasn’t really changed the sort of way that they run those calculations to mine. Data from Digieconomist shows that each year Bitcoin uses around 95 terawatts of electrical energy. And if terawatts doesn’t mean anything to you, that’s about the same amount of electricity as Kazakhstan, the country, uses every year. Which you know, throw in  whatever Borat at reference you want, although I’m sure Kazakhstan has a lot of other things going on. Um, when it comes to AI, more research does need to be done to sort of see how it balances because right now, there’s still probably a lot more people messing around with crypto than there are messing around with AI. And AI companies aren’t being super transparent on how much energy that they’re using, because they don’t have to. But experts are worried that as companies continue to incorporate AI tools into their pre existing products like search engines, that environmental impact will become pretty severe. But you know, it is important to note that these AI systems can also be used for sustainability purposes like optimizing energy use, tracking land use, or water use and evaluating climate risks. So yes, it uses a lot of energy. We don’t know exactly how much yet compared to crypto, probably will be more very, very soon. But also AI can be used for good. Yeah, it was a good question.

Kai Ryssdal 

It’s a really good question, because I hadn’t even thought about that. And of course, it’s using all kinds of freaking electricity and climate. Yeah man.

Kimberly Adams 

Don’t get overwhelmed.

Kai Ryssdal 

Well, no, it’s I mean, well, so look, I mean, this… here’s all the… here’s the thing, right? All this stuff that we’re doing to and I’m using air quotes here, you can’t see me because it’s podcast to “make our lives better, right?” Because AI eventually, you know, we’ll figure it out how to use it for good instead of just screwing around and messing things up, right. And crypto will eventually be real money as opposed to now what it is, which is a deeply speculative vehicle. Eventually all these things are going to be useful and we’re gonna want more of them. But the plan is going to be fried and that’s not great.

Kimberly Adams 

I always find it fascinating how confident you are that crypto is going to be real money. And when you say that you mean like blockchain technology in general, not necessarily the cryptocurrency.

Kai Ryssdal 

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not blockchain technology at all. I mean, yes, blockchain and crypto go together, right? And blockchain is useful for much stuff and has already proved its its usefulness. And that’s not really the issue. The issue is currency based on the blockchain right? Which now is deeply, deeply speculative. And here’s the only question I need to ask anybody to find out whether they’re really into blockchain, or they’re just using it to mess around: would you take your paycheck in Bitcoin? And for now, I’ve not met anybody who’s not a politician and doing it for show, who says yes. You know. And even the politicians who are doing it for show and say, yes, what happens is actually they get paid in fiat currency, they get paid in dollars, and then they convert that to Bitcoin. And so it’s kind of a joke. Sorry, I’m a little ranty these days.

Kimberly Adams 

That’s okay. I opened the door for that rant. I totally did. But anyway, let’s get on to our next question. Go on play the tape.

Michelle 

Hi, my name is Michelle. I’m calling from Fallbrook, California, in San Diego County. My question is, if we were to run out of money, why couldn’t we just go ahead and print more money? so the debt ceiling wouldn’t be a threat? Thanks.

Kai Ryssdal 

Wow, there’s like four questions all rolled in there in one Michelle. Those are all very good questions. So on the why can’t we just print more money thing? We could. Jay Powell can go to his office and use a special keyboard that only the Chairman of the Federal Reserve has, and create a gazillion dollars. The problem is, and that’s a very shorthand version of the way it works. But the problem is that if you create more money and get it out into the system, then that money becomes less and less valuable. And the next thing you know, you’re in the Weimar Republic, and you have to use a wheelbarrow full of dollars to buy a loaf of bread. I exaggerate, but only a tiny little bit. Okay? You can’t just print more money, because then you monetize the debt and it becomes, the dollar becomes meaningless and almost worthless. Okay. That’s problem number one. Problem number two, is that on the debt limit specifically right? That’s not going to fix it. Just creating more dollars won’t fix the problem. All right, because there’s number one inflation. But number two, there is the very real challenge of what might be acceptable to the various authorities. And by the various authorities I mean, Jay Powell at the Fed, Janet Yellen at Treasury, and I was about to say Bill Clinton, and Joe Biden in the White House. I don’t know, I don’t know where that came from. So you might have heard on this podcast and elsewhere, this thing about minting the coin right? That Janet Yellen, at the direction of the president has the Treasury, the mint, just literally striking a trillion dollar platinum coin. And then Janet Yellen walks that over, she’s the Treasury Secretary, she walks that over to Jay Powell’s office. And Jay Powell was the fiscal agent for the Treasury Department and says, Hey, Jay, put this on deposit in the treasuries account. And thus the Treasury has a trillion dollars of not actual money, but bank credit money with which to continue issuing debt. The problem is the Janet Yellen thinks that’s the gimmick, Joe Biden has not said whether he will do it. There’s some doubt as to whether or not Jay Powell would actually say “no, no, no, Jenet and I’m not taking that because it’s a gimmick, and I can’t do that anyway.” So where are we on the debt limit? We are nowhere on the debt limit. There was a meeting on May the ninth, the big four, which is to say Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer in the Senate, the two party leaders there; Kevin McCarthy, the Speaker of the House, and Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic Leader in the House are gonna go to the White House, and they’re going to sit down with President, and they’re all going to figure out a way to fix the debt limit, and it’s going to be fixed. I’m kidding. That’s not what’s going to happen. This is going to drag on to the very last minute. The White House is working on some theories that maybe the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which says the validity of the public debt, shall not be questioned might make the debt limit unconstitutional. We’ll see. I don’t know. But just to round it out, and to stop this ramble. Can’t just print more money because that just creates horrible, horrible, horrible inflation. The debt limit, which is separate from printing more money, but kind of related is a political football now. It’s a total artifice, created in 1917, after World War One, in the middle of World War One, but that’s a whole different podcast. And it has become a very useful political tool for Republicans who want a stronger on their way into some policy options instead of doing regular budget negotiations, so I’m gonna stop talking.

Kimberly Adams 

I was just thinking that can you imagine the political fallout and sort of precedent that it will set if Biden really does seriously negotiate get over this? Like what that would mean for the future, not just for this administration but for future administrations. Because then if a Republican comes to power and Democrats are in charge of the House, I mean, it’d be everybody would do this. Every single cycle over and over again

Kai Ryssdal 

But Democrats are never going to do this. This is this is… think about that. No, come on. Donald Trump got three clean debt limit raises when Democrats were in control of Congress.

Kimberly Adams 

Right and what I’m saying is if… and it went through. But I’m saying that if Biden were to negotiate on this because the Republicans force his hand, if he were to give in, then best believe that the next time the tables are turned the Democrats will do the same.

Kai Ryssdal 

I’ll tell you what, you what, Democrats classically bring a knife to a gunfight

Kimberly Adams 

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, boy, okay. We’re gonna stick to the economics.

Kai Ryssdal 

So this one’s from Jay it’s an email it is: “how can the UK” the United Kingdom “block the US company Microsoft from acquiring the US company Activision Blizzard?” I’m gonna read that again because the countries are important. How can the UK the United Kingdom block the US the American company Microsoft from acquiring the US, that is the American company, Activision Blizzard?

Kimberly Adams 

Yes, the countries are important and for those who have not been following the gaming industry closely closely, last week, the UK, the United Kingdom’s antitrust regulator, ruled to block a merger between Microsoft and the gaming company Activision Blizzard, and Activision Blizzard is a really big one. I’m trying to their what are their big games? I think it’s like Grand Theft Auto.

Kai Ryssdal 

Call of Duty and… Candy Crush, actually, Candy Crush?

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah, yeah, let me just make sure I’m getting this right. So let’s see… No, Activision Blizzard. Anyway, gamers can correct me because I’m not a gamer. I’m sorry. I don’t know which which games go with what company.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah audience interaction.

Kimberly Adams 

Yes, you all can tell me one day I need to like set something up where I just like let people teach me how to play video games since my siblings wouldn’t let me play on the console when I was little. And so I never learned. Heartbreak. Anyway, Activision Blizzard. Microsoft has been trying to buy this company for the longest, and the UK’s antitrust regulator rule to block that merger last week. And the reason because the regulator said the merger would stifle competition, particularly in the cloud gaming market. So rather than, you know, physical disks and consoles, the, you know, the Candy Crushes of the world. So Microsoft said it is going to appeal the UK’s decision to try to get the deal through. Now, the UK is not the only country weighing in on this, even though it is a deal between two US companies. The US… in the United States, the FTC is also suing to block the merger. That happened last year. But regulators in Saudi Arabia, Japan, South Africa and other country countries are saying, “it doesn’t really matter, it’s fine. Go ahead.” The EU, the European Union, which is an even broader group, is set to make a decision on the deal late in May. Now then, to go back to the original question about why the UK, or any of these other countries can weigh in on something happening between two American companies. It has to do with the fact that international companies have a responsibility to follow the relevant laws and regulations in all of the countries they’re operating in. Now, you don’t have to @ me. I know, there are 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of historical examples of companies, particularly Western companies, operating in different parts of the world with not a care in the world for local laws, regulations, human rights, and whatever. But in this case, even though Microsoft and Activision Blizzard are both US owned companies, they do still have to cooperate with the UK Government if they want to operate there. Because the UK and the EU and a bunch of other countries do actually have some teeth to their enforcement mechanisms that could make Microsoft’s life pretty miserable. And it’s kind of like how US companies, even if you’re headquartered in  I don’t know, Delaware, you still have to follow the laws of Missouri if you’re operating in Missouri. We’ve talked on the show before about you know, the Texas government threatening companies that they think are too woke, you know, even if they’re not Texas companies that they’ll have some penalties. So they do have to follow UK rules and rulings about you know, mergers and such. But right now, the you know, Microsoft isn’t really saying whether it will it will abide by this. It says it’s going to appeal. And so until that appeal happens, until we know what the final disposition is, we’re not really going to know whether or not Microsoft is going to adhere to this or not. Or maybe, you know, they’ll set up some different division of a company or some shell company that runs their UK operations or something like that. Who knows?

Kai Ryssdal 

Right. No it’s a good question.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah, it is a good question. Last question of the day is from John in Grand Rapids, and this one is for Kai, which made me chuckle quite a bit. “I’ve been listening since the very first episode, and the podcast starting with Kai being caught unaware by the theme music happens so often it belongs squarely in the center of the make me smart bingo card. My behind the scenes question is whether the engineer is doing this to mess with Kai, or is Kai just not paying attention?” Kai…

Kai Ryssdal 

I think both of those things can be true. There are certain engineers who are more likely to mess with me and us than others. And it is also true that sometimes I’m just not paying attention. I have a very short attention span. That’s all I’m saying. Both of those things can be true, John. Thank you for listening, though, for a very, very long time.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah. And for paying attention to the details. All right. Speaking of bingo, we’re actually curious to know what you would put on a Make Me Smart bingo card. I know I saw a few on social media floating around a couple years ago, but what would you put on it now? What do we say so often that it’s worth the bingo. You can let us know we’re at 508-UB-SMART. You can also email us at makemesmart@marketplace.org. Also, if you have a question about the show or any other Kai-isms that you want to know or questions related to the economy, business and tech, you can send us our way to. Yes, I just made that up. Kai-isms.

Kai Ryssdal 

I know. It’s all good. Make Me Smart is produced by Courtney Bergsieker. Ellen Rolfes writes our newsletter. Our intern is Antonio Barreras. Today’s program was engineered by one of the engineers who messes with us sometimes, Juan Carlos Torrado.

Kimberly Adams 

Ben Tolliday and Daniel Ramirez used to mess with us but also composed our theme music. Our senior producer is Marissa Cabrera. Bridget Bodnar is the director of podcasts. Francesca Levy is the executive director of Digital.