Chantal Libsack spent the fall of 2024 house hunting from her tiny studio apartment in downtown Seattle, beside her husband Travis Libsack. She approached the hunt like she does everything else in her life: with meticulous research.
She envisioned an open floor plan, a backyard for the dogs, and plenty of space for hosting. Travis, on the other hand, had a pretty standard vision for a home. He wasn’t even sure they should be looking for houses yet.
“We can wait another year, live in this apartment, save up some money, and then we can go and look at houses that are slightly more expensive but will be a better fit for us,” Travis told “This Is Uncomfortable” host Reema Khrais.
“And then in five years, all these homes have appreciated four x that amount!” rebutted Chantal. “We're just gonna get priced out every single year.”
They spent countless weekends looking at homes in Seattle's notoriously tough market. Eventually, they came across a place they actually liked: a 1900s craftsman on a spot near Lake Washington. For Chantal, it was love at first sight, but Travis didn’t share her certainty.
They found themselves not just navigating the housing market, but the art of compromise. That’s where financial therapist Aja Evans comes in: Travis and Chantal sit down with Aja to unpack what's really behind their money disagreements and how to move forward with more empathy and intention.
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This Is Uncomfortable May 22, 2025 Transcript
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Reema Khrais: Chantal Libsack spent the fall of 2024 house hunting from bed, beside her husband Travis Libsack. She approached the hunt like she does everything else in her life: with meticulous research.
Chantal Libsack: It would be me at night, sorting my Zillow from cheapest, um, and showing Travis the house, being like, okay, this is the distance from the house to your job. And then I can still take the bus to work. (FADE DOWN) 'cause I was really adamant on not getting a second car, um, and keeping all the rest of our finances the same. I was like, and if we do this, I was like, our livelihood will be better. The dogs will have a backyard. I'll have more space when people come to visit.
Khrais: When Chantal imagined her dream home she envisioned an open floor plan, a backyard for the dogs, plenty of space for friends and family –
Chantal: I know I immediately want to be able to have folks over and feel like it's a conducive space for hosting.
Khrais: And as a newlywed, she had long-term priorities.
Chantal: I'm aching for children, and I want a safe space. I wanna be able to feel like our kids can go bike to their friend's house and I'm not worried about anyone getting snatched.
Khrais: Her husband Travis’ goals were similar, if a little less vivid:
Travis Libsack: Standardized house, standard yard. Have a family. I thought it was just like, that's kind of the next step in life.
Khrais: They were living in downtown Seattle in a tiny apartment - just 400 square feet - with their two Corgis.
Then, a big disagreement entered the mix: should they even be house hunting to begin with?
Travis: I was always of the, of the thinking that we can wait another year, live in this apartment, save up some money, and then we can go and look at, like, houses that are slightly more expensive but will be a better fit for us.
Chantal: So Travis is like, “Well, if we wait five years, we can save X thousands of dollars.” And I was like, “And then in five years, all these homes have appreciated four x that amount!” I was like, “We're just gonna get priced out every single year.”
Khrais: Chantal is a data analyst at a financial services company, and Travis works at a major aerospace company as an engineer. They’ve been together for six years, first met in Spanish class, as undergrads at MIT.
Travis: We had talked a little bit
Khrais: What’d you talk about in Spanish 1?
Chantal: Probably like, where is the bathroom?
Travis: Me llamo es… (Laughter)
Khrais: They bonded over their shared ambition and sense of adventure. Travis and Chantal are not the kind of couple who veg out on the couch all weekend.
Chantal: Travis and I still don’t watch TV today. We're very much, we should wake up, go on a hike. And we've been like that since we've been dating. We don't like to lounge. Like we both get high anxiety if we wake up late and we haven't done anything with the day by a certain hour of the morning.
Khrais: They have similar salaries: Chantal makes about $140,000 a year and Travis about $130,000. But his work days are long– often 12 to 14 hours.
Travis: When I first started, the hours weren't too bad, but then I, like, it got a little more intense and I was staying later and later. Chantal, meanwhile, was going a little stir-crazy, kinda like at the house. Didn't, it's like we didn't have any friends nearby.
Khrais: So, on top of her high-paying job as a data analyst, Chantal started picking up shifts as a server at a local restaurant - making an extra 40-thousand dollars a year. Chantal’s kind of like a shark, she needs to be in constant motion, always swimming towards something.
Travis: And that was her, like, way to kind of get out and talk to people and, and make some money.
Khrais: When do you all see each other?
Chantal: It's a part-time relationship. Um, that's why it's been so healthy for so long. We see each other on the weekends.
Khrais: Still, it was enough time to start talking about buying a home.
Chantal: I would say in our part-time relationship, he got a full-time amount of me bringing up wanting to buy a home.
Khrais: I’m Reema Khrais, and welcome to This is Uncomfortable. This week on the show, another installment in one of our favorite series: Money Fight. Chantal is a listener of the show, and she wrote to us about the tension that built between her and Travis as they searched for their first home. And let me tell you, buying a house can strain the strongest relationships. It can expose the money and communication issues that you never knew you had.
As soon as they got back from their honeymoon, Chantal and Travis spent nearly every weekend – basically their only real time together– trying to find a house. They live in Seattle, one of the most expensive housing markets in the country. With companies like Amazon, Microsoft and Google in town, it’s a city full of people with tech salaries, ready to swoop in and outbid you with all-cash offers.
The median sale price of a home in Seattle is a little under 900-hundred thousand dollars, which also happened to be Travis and Chantal’s budget. So armed with that number, Chantal’s optimism, and a realtor, they dove in. Chantal estimates they looked at least 100 homes. And the more they searched, the more they started to see some patterns. Like great prices but less than ideal locations.
There was this one house built in the 40s: it had hardwood floors, big windows, enough space to host. Also within their price range. But they didn’t love that there was an affordable housing unit right behind it.
Chantal: I think it was 900k and it was huge. And I was like, “Travis, it's fine. I don't care about that.” And he was just like, “How, it's on the market still because no one wants to buy it because of that.” And I blindly was just like, “But it's $900,000!”
Khrais: But then the more Chantal thought about it…
Chantal: Woke Chantal is like, that doesn't matter.
Khrais: Right.
Chantal: I love all these programs. Like, let's blah blah. But also I'm like, yeah, I don't wanna have to explain that to a guest every time they come over, to say like, “That tall building we're literally in our backyard is for blah.”
Khrais: Then there were houses in neighborhoods they liked more, but the homes had the shoddy workmanship of a flip.
Travis: Somebody made these shelves out of plywood in the, in, in the bedroom. I don't think we wanna live in a house that's falling apart.
Khrais: Flipping houses is popular side hustle, and some sellers were clearly hoping Chantal and Travis wouldn’t notice the mismatched flooring, moldy basement, and overgrown trees in the yard.
Chantal: Travis, I think, would look at the house, point out the fact that there is probably a foundation issue visible in the listing, and he'd remind me that it's gonna be like a quarter million dollars to fix this. And I was like, “Well, we can fix it over time!” Um, so that, that would be my perspective.
Khrais: So the price was right, but they’d either have to pay a huge chunk upfront or live with renovations and contractors for years.
Not long into their search, Travis re-upped his argument: Maybe they should wait. Or at the very least, consider increasing their budget.
Travis: It's like a little bit of a step function in Seattle in my opinion, 'cause you can go up, you go up just a little bit in price and the houses become a lot nicer. They're in nicer neighborhoods, they're more put together.
Khrais: Chantal agreed, and they started looking at houses that cost around a million dollars.
Chantal: That was a growing pain I think of a lot of our conversations because in Seattle, uh, like being in Seattle proper, a house for under million dollars is really rare.
Khrais: One day they came across a Zillow listing for a 1900s craftsman. It was underwhelming but they figured, why not check it out?
Chantal: But once we arrived I was like, oh, we come here to walk our dogs all the time. Like this is the neighborhood we go to 'cause we were like, this is such a nice neighborhood.
Travis: The house is in, like, a pretty gorgeous spot near the lake. And so we're kinda walking through it. It has tons of windows. Um, it's very bright inside.
Khrais: Travis was pleasantly surprised. Chantal was in love. She grew up in Miami, coveting water views, and she never imagined that she might one day afford a house of her own with a view of a lake.
Chantal: I just didn't think we would have a morning coffee looking at Lake Washington. To me, it was like, this is such a huge selling point.
Travis: I think the total house size is like 1400 square feet, but it felt big. Uh, and I think we both like that. And there’s like a cool little attic space, and when we both saw it, we were like, “Oh, this would be perfect for, for kids, ‘cause it's like carpeted.”
Chantal: All the bedrooms are upstairs. It's an open concept kitchen. I was like, we don't, we can move in and not have to do anything.
Khrais: But it was significantly more expensive than the houses they’d been looking at before.
Chantal: This one was posted for 1.175 million, and we knew we were gonna talk it down 'cause it was on the market for a bit.
Khrais: Chantal was sure that if they could negotiate down the price and the inspections came back clear, this would be the house where they’d raise their children. But despite the cozy attic and gorgeous lake view, Travis wasn’t sold. The house was 30 minutes from his office, and the knob and tube electrical wiring would need to be totally replaced. He told Chantal, let’s keep shopping around.
Travis: I was like, hey, we, we just increased our price, or like, our budget, and we found a house that we really like. That's awesome. But did we really just find the first one, like on the, the second day we're doing this? Like that, that makes no sense.
Khrais: But it didn’t make sense to Chantal that they’d wait. She’d spent months watching houses get snatched off the market. She was convinced they’d found a gem. She wanted to make an offer as soon as possible.
Chantal: I was like, I have historic proof that is just really rare to buy anything in this price point in our neighborhood. During the week, we saw multiple homes in that same price range, and I, because I obviously I was already in love with this house, but just walked through them being like, “Ew, I hate this. Oh my God, no windows. It's so dark. No water views. Why would we ever live here and pay the same amount of money? Travis, are you with me now?”
Khrais: And that’s when things started to break down.
Travis: We were in bed talking, obviously upset at, with each other. Um, and yeah, kind of, it's like dark, so you're not, you don't need to like, look at the other person directly. Kinda like talking to each other, uh, getting mad at each other a little bit.
Khrais: It all came back to their original disagreement: Whether they should buy now or save up and buy a pricier, move in ready, home in a year or two. Travis made his pitch to Chantal again:
Travis: The houses in Seattle are expensive. They're probably gonna get more expensive, but we can save faster than they're gonna appreciate ever, like with the money that we're making. So it was– you just really wanted a house and you wanted to get one soon. It was like, this is what I want before, like, we have kids or right after we're married, so we can kind of check the box off and, uh, make sure we're, we're safe and we have our own space.
Khrais: Lying there in the darkness, Chantal would respond:
Chantal: I'm ready to buy this house, and you're pulling me down by telling me I need to wait even longer, when I now feel ready and I feel like I have the resources to do it, and I've spent like at this point would be five years preparing to do this thing that you're now telling me we should wait a couple more years to do. And I just didn't think that was fair.
Khrais: When they moved in together, Chantal had pushed for a studio apartment instead of a one-bedroom so they could save money for a down payment. Her paychecks from her waitressing job - also for the down payment. And she had a financial cushion from her old job, from stock she’d earned -- shares in the company she could now sell for real money.
Travis had stock too, but his situation was different. He works at a private aerospace company so while he also gets shares, they don’t have much value, at least not until the company goes public.
So even though their salaries are similar, Chantal had access to money Travis didn’t.
Chantal: I was really, I think I was really upset 'cause most of the down payment was gonna be me. I was like, this would be a different dynamic if this was like all Travis's money and I was just being an annoying wife at the time, being like, “You need to get me this grand house.”
Khrais: And it wasn’t just about buying a house, she wanted to start a family ASAP, whereas Travis was comfortable waiting until their mid thirties.
Chantal: I really wanted to have kids the moment we got married. Like, to me, getting married was the final step to us starting to try. So I was like, I would also love to just have the space and not feel like we need to move. Like, I would love to make memories in the same spot.
Khrais: Chantal saw herself pushing a stroller and walking their dogs around the lake, building friendships in their new neighborhood. Travis didn’t feel the same urge to nest right away.
Travis: When I was a baby, I was in, like, an apartment for a year, so we can have, we can start a family and save up some more money and be like in a small, smaller space. And that wasn't as big of a concern for me. But I think that’s also maybe because I had something to fall back on, like a family. If stuff got really bad I could fall back on family, whereas for Chantal, that wasn’t in her realm of possibilities as much.
Khrais: Chantal’s parents immigrated to Miami from Jamaica as young adults. Her father passed away when she was thirteen, and money was a struggle. Her mom instilled in her from an early age that homeownership was the path to establishing generational wealth.
Chantal: My mom bought her townhouse when she was… twenty seven? Obviously, like my mom did get government assistance but that has always been the pedestal my mom talks about today, of like, it was super important, like: “If I didn't get it then I was never gonna get a house.” Now she's like, “I could never buy something in Miami today with what I'm making.” And I think I hear that rhetoric and I’m like and I think a lot of people we know, especially our parents, all bought a house where they were pinching a little bit, and now they're super happy that they made that jump when they made that jump because it would've been really, really unrealistic for them today.
Travis: My parents never told me, like, “This is when you need to buy a house,” or like, “This is when you should do that.” It just wasn't a topic of conversation. I just think in my mind, for what I was envisioning, I'm like, oh yeah, we could, like, I'll, I'll maybe be a little bit older, but that's gonna be okay.
Khrais: There was something else driving Chantal's anxiety… watching her college friends buy their first homes.
Chantal: I have this bad habit of comparing 'cause their homes were like twice our price and much nicer, but also they all had parental assistance with their down payments. And I was like, we are in the same bucket and you're still getting help and it's still elevating you to be above us.
Khrais: Yeah.
Chantal: Um, so I think that envy has been hard in adulthood because, even though I feel like I've been given all the right resources to do well, I still feel like I'm falling behind for some reason.
Khrais: Chantal is 29, graduated from a prestigious college, makes six figures, and lives in a desirable city with her husband and two adorable dogs. But like a lot of us, she still compares herself to her peers, and feels like she’s falling behind in life because they don’t own a home.
On paper, Travis and Chantal have the same goals. But they have different levels of urgency about meeting those goals. And when that’s the case, when the timelines in a relationship don’t align perfectly, even gentle hesitation can land like rejection. Chantal felt like she was carrying the dream alone.
One day, while walking the dogs around her neighborhood, she was on the phone with her mom, venting about all of this.
Chantal: I was crying on the phone with my mom being like, I know this is the house and I'm really upset that Travis doesn't see the same vision that I have.
Khrais: That night when Travis got home from work Chantal brought it up again. She told him:
Chantal: “You don't need to touch any of your work stock. Like, I'm okay liquidating mine so that we can have the mortgage that we're, we're like wanna be capped at, for the house that I'm excited about, that you said you'd like.” And I was like, “You can like it and I can love it and that should still be fine. We don't have to both love it.” And Travis was really adamant that we should both love it, but he never loved any house he saw for the last two years. So I was like, "I don't think you're ever gonna love anything.”
Khrais: In the heat of the moment, she issued an ultimatum: he could agree to buy the house with her, or she’d do it alone.
Chantal: I was probably teary-eyed saying, like, I looked at my bank account today, like I did the numbers. Like, I can put down this down payment without you.
Khrais: Chantal was like, I can throw all of my savings – half a million dollars – towards the down payment.
Chantal: And you can just be my, pretty much my roommate in this house and pay me my fair share of the mortgage.
Khrais: Travis, like how'd you respond to that? And how did you feel when she said that?
Travis: I was definitely hurt. I definitely told her I felt like she was trying to blackmail me.
Chantal: Yes. No, it was definitely manipulative. Oh, I can look back and be like, that was toxic. At this point we were only married for two months, and Travis kept emphasizing like, “Is this really how you want to start off our new life together?”
Khrais: For Travis, the idea of not contributing at all to the down payment was a no-go. He wanted to make these decisions and investments as a team.
Travis: I liked the house but didn't love it. It didn't feel like it was both, it was something we were both going in, on at the same level, which is what I like was envisioning for, uh, our first house.
Khrais: Travis didn’t want their first big purchase as a married couple to involve an ultimatum. Chantal was angry.
Chantal: I'm very petty. So yeah, Travis got the cold shoulder. I was like, I don't wanna go out to dinner with you. I'm gonna stay at home and just reminisce about how I'm always gonna live in a tiny apartment because you'll never be ready to buy a home.
Khrais: Meanwhile Travis was digging in his heels.
Travis: I need to defend my points more. I need to be like, what I'm thinking, like the stuff I'm saying isn't crazy. We have opposite points and then we dig in and, uh, it just gets more and more, just more and more polarized.
Khrais: For a week, the tension in their 400-square-foot apartment was palpable.
Chantal: After those dialogues, I definitely leave feeling like the goal wasn't to hurt my partner but that's definitely what I did. I remember going to bed a few nights, like, literally rolling over in the opposite direction with Travis, 'cause I was so deeply irritated, 'cause his reasonings just did not feel valid.
Travis: I felt a little bit stuck.
Khrais: So then how did you all get to the point where you were putting in an offer?
Chantal: Travis, how did that happen?
Travis: How did that, uh, well…
Chantal: How did I convince you? How much crying?
Travis: Lots of, lots of talking from Chantal, lots of convincing. I think in the end, I was just like, okay I, uh… It wasn't a place where the cons outweighed the pros, so I was like, I'm not walking into, like, a horrible situation.
Khrais: They were visiting the house again with the realtor, talking over their options, when Travis told Chantal – if we can get some experts in here to check out the foundation and the electrical, and if we can bargain them down to $1.1 million, then fine, we can put in an offer.
Travis: Everybody we checked it with was like, okay, this doesn't seem that bad. It's just an old house. Like it's in pretty good condition. At some point, I'm like, Chantal, I don't, I don't hate the house. I will, like, if you're, you're, you're so into this that I'm gonna be there to support you.
Khrais: They put in an offer– and it was accepted. They ended up paying about 100k more than their original budget. In the end, Chantal contributed half a million to the down payment, and Travis put down $50,000.
Chantal: I have no savings to my name, but Travis could pay this mortgage on his own if I did quit my job today.
Khrais: How did it feel to sign the paperwork to when you bought the house?
Chantal: Oh wow. A mix of relief 'cause I could delete Zillow…
(All laugh)
Chantal: …and I got so much of my time back in the evenings, but also so much stress of, oh wow, like this is so much more than our apartment is. This is like a crazy amount of money that now we're, uh, legally tied to. But I'm very happy with the house. Since we got it, I have zero regrets about the home. I do feel like we're fully married now because we have a home, which is really weird.
Travis: I, so it felt real when we got the keys. Um, and it was, it was pretty exciting, uh, to like, but the house was all empty. It's like, what do we, we got so much space. We got, there's a lot…
Khrais: “What do we do with all of it?”
Travis: Yeah. And yeah, our whole personality has become, uh, what are, like, what are we gonna do here? Are we gonna change this? Like, how are we gonna clean this up? How are we gonna improve it?
Khrais: The house that created so much division between the two of them has now become a space of community.
Chantal: People are coming to us when they wanna break, when they wanna spend quality time with us, makes me feel really comforted and I always am offering for folks to stay over. So this summer, again, if you're free, feel free to come by.
Khrais: Haha, I'll come through.
Chantal: Yes!
Khrais: I mean, I'm only a couple hours away, in Portland.
Chantal: We're gonna be in the water this whole summer. Get ready!
Khrais: Chantal and Travis are trying for a baby and thinking more about how they want to handle future money fights.
Chantal: I don't want our kid to see a dynamic of arguing always being like, one person has to win. I want it to be a visual of, okay, these are, this is how these two people come to a compromise. And Travis is definitely a very open partner, where he sees a lot of my perspective. I think I struggle a lot with seeing his, um, and that's something I just, I will continue to work on throughout our marriage, but I think that will just lead to a healthier dynamic with when there are disagreements. Being able to take a step back, realize what my partner's envisioning or what they want, and then like understanding from my perspective, like, okay, what am I okay with giving up?
Travis: There's definitely like a dig in on your side of the trench and just like, not wanna move. So I think, I just need to realize when that's happening and take a step back and make sure that I'm being fair.
Khrais: They both seemed motivated to change the way that they fight about money, but were still struggling to break those patterns. So I asked them if they wanted to do a different kind of recording:
Khrais: Sometimes for some episodes that we've done in the past, we'll pair the couple or the person that we're talking to with like a financial therapist, if they wanna talk through some of whatever they brought up with us. Um, is that something y'all would be interested in? Do you have the bandwidth for that?
Chantal: Oh, I'm always open to learning about financial literacy.
Travis: Yeah. I was gonna say, you– you also need a financial therapist.
Khrais: Okay, cool. So you're open?
Chantal: Yes.
Khrais: After the break, financial therapist Aja Evans enters the chat to give Travis and Chantal her advice on how to prevent money fights and come back together when they do arise.
[BREAK]
Khrais: Welcome back. Aja Evans is a licensed therapist based in New York. Talking to couples about money is her bread and butter. And I should say, whenever we invite a financial therapist on the show, I gotta stress that what you’re hearing isn’t a true therapy session—therapy is private, and usually happens over many sessions.
For this recording, Chantal and Travis’ goal was to navigate their next disagreement about money with an approach that centers their common goals. So Aja started by establishing a baseline.
Aja Evans: So right now, how do you two normally have a conversation about money?
Travis: Between the two of us, Chantal's a little more like sensitive, in terms of what we wanna spend money on. If we're like going on a flight somewhere, saving an extra $50 is like a big deal, um, for Chantal, where me, I'm like, uh, maybe let's get something a little more convenient. So…
Chantal: I’m feeling attacked…
Travis: You are not getting attacked.
Chantal: …he’s referring to the fact that we just booked flights for a wedding, and I really wanted a red eye 'cause I think it saves time and it was like a hundred dollars cheaper. Okay. And Travis is very much the person pushing for, it's not worth the joint of us saving 200 bucks. Um, so I think we just had a lot of pushing back with that specific conversation a week ago.
Travis: It is just an example, but it's something that happens quite often.
Chantal: Yes, it's a good example of a small ticket item that him and I still will probably have some sort of tension over 'cause to me, $200 is worth the inconvenience and I don't think Travis is at that stage of $200 being worth a terrible flight.
Khrais: Chantal explained that Travis will make the point that in the past when they’ve taken red eyes, they’ve spent the day exhausted. But to Chantal, saving $200 adds up considering they have eight weddings on the calendar this summer. This dynamic plays out around all kinds of purchases.
Chantal: I'm typically the, like the secretary in the relationship who's doing a lot of the coordination. So I would say my role is always, I'm presenting Travis with some sort of data, and then leading him to where I want him to go.
Evans: So for you, Travis, how do you kind of enter that conversation when she's like already ready to go with her research?
Travis: I think I usually approach it knowing, uh, where Chantal's gonna going to be coming from. Just 'cause uh, yeah, we've talked so much about it.
Khrais: When you’re in an argument and are already sure what the other person is going to say and start preparing your defense– it doesn’t usually go well.
From Chantal’s point of view, Travis, who grew up middle class, is willing to spend money for convenience. Whereas Chantal, who was raised by a single mom in an immigrant family, is more thrifty.
Chantal: With convenience comes a lot of waste that I don't like either. So maybe I'll go out of my way to like reuse. Uh, a good example is like the sandwich bags in our house. I don't think we ever repurchased another, like, large package. Like I reuse them so often. And we still have the same package I bought from like when we were living on the East coast. It has traveled with us. So the same hundred–
Travis: I grew up reusing those all the time though, Chantal. It's not a good example.
Chantal: Yeah, that too.
Travis: But I'm just saying it's a, if it's a comparison.
Chantal: Okay, it's a good example for the both of us, Travis, but I'll just say I am crazy like that where I don't throw things like that away. But I think a lot of people's perspective of, “It's so dirty. Why are you wasting all this energy cleaning it?” And I just, I have, I'm probably never gonna buy a sandwich bag ever in my life.
Evans: Fair.
Chantal: I don’t know if I answered your question, Aja.
Khrais: Aja interjected with a reminder about what it means to give your partner grace when the two of you disagree.
Evans: You have to remember that the decision that your partner is making is not just the decision that your partner is making. The decision is also ripe with history, experience, baggage around that decision, even when they know it or when they don't. So when I talk to my couples and I'm like, “Hey, give each other grace,” it's, I want the other partner to realize, hey, they may be worried about this, but it's not just that worry. It's also, Hey, I went through this experience. I did that without them saying it. And how can I show up, giving grace, caring for them and wanting to make sure that they feel secure? Because we're gonna handle this together.
Chantal: Can we walk through a scenario then if like, given the examples I've shared, of me approaching Travis with homes I'm interested in? Like how would you then have this conversation? 'Cause I think I come in a bit righteous with, “I know way more than you, I've already done all this research, so you should take my opinion very seriously because of the weight of how much I feel like I know more than you do.” Um, and it's really hard to not have that perspective obviously, when he’s coming in blind to these conversations. So then I'm not really sure where to open up the dialogue because, to me I think it is a bit... Like I, I felt like my approach was a good approach given that I'm coming in with what I consider facts – so unbiased data set of like, these are their homes, these are their values. Um, these are my preferences, like pick from this list.
Evans: A great entry would be, “Travis, what are your preferences?” [laughter] Like, right there. Perfect like, “Hey, what are your preferences?” Before you even show him the list. So just understanding, what do you want? Do you want a place to grill? Do you want a backyard? Like whatever it may be. Um, asking his preference before you are even doing your research, before you're diving in, so that you're going in united around what's important to both of you.
Chantal: Oh, that's good.
Evans: If I can make a small request that, Travis, you join your wife in this research so that you don't have to go on the defensive around, “Why is she choosing these options? This looks absolutely insane.” But Chantal, you're not feeling like, “I've done, I've done all this work, I need to convince him that this is the best way.”
Travis: That would've been better. I think we did talk about our preferences, but I think beforehand would've been good.
Chantal: At some point we got to it, is what he’s saying.
Travis: It was used more of a rebuttal. Right? So it wasn't, it wasn't like, united, like “this is what we want.” It was more of, Chantal showed me her preferences and her stuff, and then I'm like, I used it as a rebuttal. Like, these are why I don't like it ‘cause these are my preferences. So.
Aja: Yeah, and I'm like, let's take the rebuttal out. Like we're going in this united for what we both want together, now go off and prosper with all of your information and your research and like. Let's talk about then those options that hit both of our needs. So Travis, I would love to hear like, what is a great way for you to either be approached about money, so that you're not feeling like you are coming in trying to refute a– I will say this, because I am in my position– a passive aggressive comment about something that you need, um, that she needs–I'm sorry.
Travis: I think if she was more open coming to the conversation with “This is why I want it,” then it would be easier for me to like, to us talk over the pros and cons. Uh, conversely I could try to, uh, bring that up, but I feel like when I do it, uh, it could be seen as maybe a little bit aggressive
Chantal: And then, I'm not sure if you actually answered Aja's question.
Travis: What was the question? I thought it was, how do I want to talk about money with you?
Chantal: Just how do you wanna be approached in reference to, I guess the money topics I typically bring to you?
Travis: Oh. How do I wanna be approached? Well, I, I answered the question. I think you just need to be a little more open with why you want something.
Chantal: I come in with facts.
Travis: You, you do, you do. I think it depends, but like, maybe if it was more, just less of the, less of the passive, more of the this is “What, what I want and why” maybe might be good.
Evans: I would also say, I think this is a beautiful example of when you two may think you're giving each other grace, but may not be giving each other as much grace. So even in that conversation of, okay, Chantal, you're like, “I'm coming in with facts. This is what it is.” It already sounds like you're on the defensive.
[laughter]
Like you're always like, already trying to convince him that this is the best way, this is exactly what we should do, this is why we should do it. When I'm sure some of that is also coming from, you know, it, it's impossible for some of it not to be coming from, you know, how you grew up, what life you live, like, all of that like is going to be seeped in your money decisions. And the same way for you, Travis, of like, okay, I need her to be, um, a little bit more direct where it sounds like she is being direct and do you feel comfortable, Travis, then being able to say to her, “Hey, I know why you're choosing the cheaper option, but we actually don't need to do that because this is going to be garbage.” And Chantal, you feeling like, “Hey, I need to give him the facts so that he knows exactly why I'm doing this,” can seem like you're in this loop of like defensiveness without even realizing that you both are kind of going in like armed up, like you're going to like suit up for this argument. I'm like, it doesn't even have to be an argument! It could just be, “Hey, I really like this thing and I want this because XYZ, XYZ.” And Travis, for you it could be: “Okay, I totally understand why you chose a cheaper version. However, I'm gonna go in and do some research too” (because we don't want it all to be on Chantal) um, “to go and do some research and look at what the different models may be so that we're not buying this piece of garbage, that you're gonna be pissed that we have to get rid of in XYZ amount of time anyway.” So do you see kind of the reframing of how you're communicating, but it's just like a slight tweak?
Chantal: Oh, yeah.
Khrais: I'd love to just chime in and ask Chantal and Travis, how are you all feeling having this conversation?
Chantal: I really feel like having this dynamic has emphasized, I think, that Travis and I have a very healthy, uh, relationship with our finances. I, obviously, I think there's room for growth, but overall, like when we end this conversation, him and I are gonna obviously continue to discuss this. I always feel like, yeah, we can make fun of each other. I appreciate that my partner does a really good job listening, so I'll give, I'll give him his, I'll give him his, uh, I guess his, like props in this scenario.
Khrais: How about you, Travis? How are you feeling?
Travis: I think I'm walking away thinking, uh, for future big ticket items, we should be clear maybe about what we want, and then we can kinda work through the options after that, so I think we'll, we'll try that approach.
Khrais: Do you have any advice on how to repair and reconnect after a money fight?
Evans: Yeah, I mean, first I would say give each other some space, right? Everybody needs that time to cool down, to just kind of come back to homeostasis, if you will, to not be activated in your body - sweating hot, just uncomfortable. And then I would say after you've cooled down, if you guys can do something together, like you have to speak, right? So it's not like, let's go to bed angry, let's just ignore it and push it under the rug. It has to be “Oh, okay. That was hard. I feel calm now. Are you good, too?” And like, check in on each other. Like are you feeling better? We love each other. This is just complicated. We want to be a united front. Let's go do something together, right? We're gonna sit and watch a show. We're gonna take a walk, we're gonna talk about something else. We're gonna make each other laugh. You need to just come back to the fact that this is hard because you're trying to merge two lives and create a life together, um, and ground yourself in, like, why you're doing it together. And however you do that is totally up to you. But coming back to each other neutral and to remember that you love each other is gonna be really important. Not just sweep it under the rug and hope it disappears.
Khrais: That was Aja Evans, financial therapist and author of Feel Good Finance.
What makes this money fight so compelling to me is that at the end of the day, Travis and Chantal want a lot of the same things: to feel safe and happy in their home, to build a joyful family and enjoy the fruits of their labor. But when you’re so successful so early in life, it can be easy to see an argument as another opportunity to come out on top, not a problem that you and your partner get to tackle together.
I kept coming back to what Aja said about grace– it applies to all kinds of conflicts, from work to friendships to family. When you understand where a behavior is coming from– whether it’s as simple as realizing that your impatient sister skipped lunch and is probably going to be more reasonable after a snack – Or as deep as knowing that your partner is second guessing your decisions because of a past trauma– Understanding your loved one before jumping into your defense makes it becomes much easier to focus on what matters: the life you’re building together.
If you and a loved one– whether that’s a sibling, roommate, or spouse– worked through a money fight and came out on the other side– send us an email at uncomfortable@marketplace.org, we’d love to talk to you.
Also before we go I want to share this new resource we’ve got for you all - if you’re sharing your life with someone and you’re stuck on some uncomfortable financial conversations, we have a new guide that I think you’ll find really helpful. It’s a short ebook, pulling together the best advice we’ve gotten about mixing money and relationships over the last 11 seasons of doing this show, including step-by-step guides from financial therapists about working through hard conversations before they turn into fights. It’s totally free, and it’s at marketplace.org/relationships.
Alice Wilder: This episode was written and produced by me, Alice Wilder. Reema Khrais is our host. Our intern is Zoha Malik, and Katie Reuther is Marketplace’s Podcast Production Fellow. Zoë Saunders is our senior producer. Our editor is Jasmine Romero. Sound design and audio engineering is by Drew Jostad. Bridget Bodnar is Marketplace’s Director of Podcasts. Francesca Levy is the Executive Director of Digital. Neal Scarborough is Vice President and general manager of Marketplace. And our theme music is by Wonderly. Special thanks to David Scarisbrick.
Khrais: Alright, that is all for this week. We’ll be back in your feeds later this summer. I’ll catch y’all then.
Khrais: Unless there's anything else that y'all wanted to say, I think we're good.
Travis: Yeah, you need to wish Chantal a happy birthday because it's her birthday.
Chantal: It is!
Evans: It's today?
Khrais: It’s your birthday! Oh my gosh! Happy birthday.
Evans: Happy birthday. Oh my god!
Chantal: Stop!
Khrais: You can just, like, chill after this, right? You don't have to go to work. You can…
Chantal: Of course, I took the day off.
Khrais: Did you actually?
Chantal: I have unlimited PTO, and I use it, honey. I use it.