This Is Uncomfortable May 15, 2025 Transcript

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Hayley Hershman: I was trying to pull up, like, old emails to stitch together a timeline, and I can't, but maybe you'll remember better than me. 

Reema Khrais: I have no idea what you're referring to. I'm afraid that you're gonna tell me that the work conflict was with me.

Hershman: I mean, you were involved.

Khrais: Oh, no. 

Khrais: I’m chatting with my colleague Hayley Hershman, she used to work on This is Uncomfortable as a producer. And we were talking about something almost all of us deal with at some point: when there’s drama at work. 

Hershman: It's like about a year before the pandemic. And you, me, a lot of people in the podcasting unit and the digital team were in this section of the office that we called the swing space. And it was really fun, because, you know, we were just like, in this big, open space work environment with like, people that are our friends. But at some point along this journey, everyone started bringing their dogs into work.

Khrais: Oh, yeah.

Hershman: It was, you know, it started off with like, one person who, like, I don't even want to name any, I'm not gonna name…

Khrais: Yeah, we're not gonna name names. 

Hershman: But, like, slowly, yeah, but we know slowly everyone started bringing their dogs into work. And I have allergies to dogs, and at the time… 

Khrais: Yeah, I was very fearful. 

Hershman: You were fearful, like, you didn't grow up with dogs. And, like, 

Khrais: That’s so funny. I forgot about this…

Hershman: But, like, everyone was doing it. But also, there was a group of people who were, like, silently or like, behind the scenes, disgruntled with it. I got called into a meeting with, basically, HR, to talk about the dog situation in the office.

Khrais: What! I didn’t know about this!

Hershman: Yeah, I got pulled aside one day say, like, to be like, “Hey, we're kind of, like, lowkey surveying people to see how they're feeling about the dog situation.” I didn't want to get myself into a situation where I'm like, “Yeah, I like, I really wish there weren't dogs in the office” but also, I kind of wish there weren’t dogs in the office! 

Khrais: You’re like, but I kind of wish there were dogs in the office! Yeah, yeah.

Hershman: But also, I didn't want to get my friends in trouble. I didn't want to, like, go to HR and complain about my friends. And I always wish that I could have gotten some advice on how to handle it.

Khrais: Well, it's a tricky tension because, yeah, objectively, don't want these dogs in the office. It's disrupting your ability to work. But I remember, yeah, some of the people who had the dogs were our close friends, and it was probably a relief for them to be able to have this option to bring their dogs in. Well, what did you end up doing?

Hershman: Well, this is what I was hoping you would remember, how this resolved, because…

Khrais: I don’t remember anything, wow, I think…

Hershman: Because I think that eventually there was, like, a workplace policy put in place around that, like, it wasn't the standard to let your dog come into the office, and then eventually, I think a few months after that, the pandemic happened. So, it kind of really became a non-issue. 

Khrais: Right.

Hershman: But I think there was just no clear answer. It was so murky. And it was like, I actually like dogs, but I'm allergic to them, and I also don't want to be the one that is preventing my friends and coworkers from, like, a situation that is good for them, and it's just, like, a thorny like, where are your boundaries? You know?

Khrais: Oof, yeah, yeah, and how do you enforce them in the workplace? Exactly. You're like, can I? Should I?

Hershman: Exactly! Yeah! yeah, right? 

Khrais: Do you think you would have felt differently if they were cats? 

Hershman: Okay, that's interesting. I think…

Khrais: You're answering with such a, sounds like you're gonna answer with the seriousness that I did not expect.

Hershman: I think I'm more allergic to cats. However, I think cats get less…

Khrais: Are objectively cuter.

Hershman: No, I was gonna say I think they're less cute. So like, I'm wondering if I would have been way more empowered to be like –

Khrais: These cats gotta go!

Hershman No, these cats have to go…

Khrais: At the time Hayley didn’t really know where to turn for advice…

So we’ve decided to create the series she needed back then: All about unpacking the messy dynamics we find ourselves in, day after day with our bosses and colleagues – and what to do about it.

Welcome to This Is Uncomfortable. I’m your host Reema Khrais. This week: your work drama… Got a coworker who doesn’t have the best Slack etiquette? A boss undermining your promotion? Or maybe you’re the one always picking up the work for your team. Whatever the gripe, big or small, we want to hear about it. Think of it as our take on the workplace advice column.

For this first installment, I’m joined by podcaster and career coach Mandi Woodruff-Santos…

Mandi Woodruff-Santos: I am the host of the brown ambition podcast and a career and negotiation expert.

Khrais: Oh, wow. Okay, you're the perfect person, so you're like a professional advice-giver when it comes to the workplace. 

Woodruff-Santos: Yes, I mean, I got sick of my children and my siblings not listening to me, so I was like, I'll take it to the masses.  

Khrais: Yeah, let me rechannel this energy, um, to people who actually listen. Okay, so we have some submissions to run by you. Our producer, Hayley, is going to read the first one. Hey, Hayley.

Hershman: Hey! Okay, so the submissions that I've got today really run the gamut. They're all about messy, toxic bosses, dreading coworker icebreakers and dealing with salary negotiations. So our first letter comes from someone using the moniker “Third-wheeling.” They say, “Hi TIU, I work for a small company. I've been there for about a decade, and really like my work, but there's one persistent issue that makes my work life stressful. My boss and her business partner have a toxic relationship. Over the years, me and coworkers have noticed that there's something that is just not quite right between these two. There have been rumors that they've been romantically involved while married to other people. We live in a small town, and people have seen them out together. And one time, I overheard the business partner having a tense phone call with my boss's spouse. In the office, their dynamic is weird. At times, the business partner has such a short fuse and gets pissed off over small things, like an incorrect Zoom link and a calendar invite. On occasion, he even sends company-wide emails announcing that he's quitting, then the next day, he follows it up with an apology email to everyone, saying he's looking into getting help. It's a mess. In many ways. I helped build this company with my boss, and I don't want to leave this job, but I also don't want to just put up with this weird dynamic.” 

Khrais: Oh, all right, a lot, a lot going on there.

Woodruff-Santos: Jesus.

Khrais: What's your first impression? 

Woodruff-Santos: Oh, girl, you got to go.

Khrais: You have to leave.

Woodruff-Santos: I mean, you can go. I think some people hold on for too long. I mean, listen, I have, I have been coaching women on how to quit for a long time, not because I want everyone to leave their jobs, but because, often, many of us are, like, ignoring signs that it's time to move on to a new opportunity and then blocking our blessings. And people are trying to, like, squeeze water out of a stone when it comes to their salaries at some companies. And the uncomfortable truth, since we're in a safe space to be uncomfortable, is that you have much more leverage when you are new to a company and you are negotiating…

Khrais: That’s so true!

Woodruff-Santos: …than you do when you have been at a place for a long time. They're used to you. They feel safe enough…

Khrais: Right.

Woodruff-Santos: ...to send crazy emails like that and act like rage-filled toddlers, like this person seems to have done in view of his colleagues.

Khrais: Mmhm. It kind of reminds me, listening to that, of just being in an unhealthy household growing up where the parents are always fighting. I mean, that's inevitably going to have some impact on you, right? I think you just want to reinforce your own professional boundaries, like clearly and consistently with yourself, at the very least.

Woodruff-Santos: Yeah, that part.

Khrais: Right? And, like, it's so tempting…

Woodruff-Santos: And with them!

Khrais: And with them, obviously, yeah, because then you start modeling…

Woodruff-Santos: And with the people who are spreading gossip, because…

Khrais: I know, I know.

Woodruff-Santos: I know it's salacious, and I'm kind of, like, low key jealous, yeah, I've never had such a juicy, you know, backstory. But also, it's kind of like watching a lot of trash TV. 

Khrais: Yeah.

Woodruff-Santos: It's fun for a while, but if it takes you too far from your goal and your center of gravity, then it's better to tune it out. 

Khrais: I know it's so easy to get pulled into workplace gossip because it's fun, right, until it's not. Okay, so in this economy, this market, sometimes, obviously quitting is not the most practical move. So if this person is staying in the workplace, how do they navigate this? 

Woodruff-Santos: Well, I think nothing will give you more of a talisman against this craziness and this toxicity than the knowledge that you're gonna get on up out of there, girlfriend.

Khrais: [laugh]

Woodruff-Santos: It's so suffocating too, because it sounds like she's been there for a while, right? It's a startup. She's helped build it. She is, like, way more involved, invested in this place than, like a typical employee would be, like, we feel like we're a part of it. 

Khrais: Yeah.

Woodruff-Santos: You know, “If we weren't here, it would fall apart. I deserve to be here because I helped build it…” And I think it's so much healthier to zoom out, look at this as a stop on your career path. And how can I start, you know, getting ready for what may come next, especially if it is such a toxic place. And so by that, I would say you need to go out and see other people. You need to be, not necessarily, you don't have to go on interviews and apply for a ton of jobs, but start connecting with other people.

Khrais: Remind yourself that there are other workplaces out there. Yeah.  

Woodruff-Santos: A thousand percent. And then you'll, you'll find that it becomes easier to ignore and not get swept up into the minutia of their drama.

Khrais: Yeah, it's all relative. You don't know what's out there until you start going out and exploring. But yeah, like, I think, for the time being, what I would say is you don't want to get pulled into that dysfunction. And yes, I think seeing what else is out there will help give you that perspective. Okay, is there any final thought before the next submission?  

Woodruff-Santos: Yeah, I do totally take your point about the economy being challenging right now, but I think these things are cyclical, and I just want to help people look at the bigger picture. And it's not, it won't always be crazy. And do you want to be caught not prepared for when opportunities do start opening back up? And do you want to be first in line for those opportunities? It's cutthroat. There's a lot of people looking right now, and the ones who are going to get those opportunities are the ones who are going to be making those connections, being squeaky wheels, being seen and heard. 

Khrais: Yeah, yeah, I know you're right. It's wild how much one contact can spiral into something else. 

Woodruff-Santos: Yes!

Khrais: You know, you just don't know how putting yourself out there will lead to an opportunity that might not even be a thing that exists today.  

Khrais: Okay, so “Third-Wheeling,” at the very least maybe it’s time to see what else is out there and to remind yourself you don’t have to put up with a toxic environment. 

Alright let’s go to our next submission.

Hershman: So, next letter comes from “No More Fun Facts.” They say, “Hi TIU, I have this problem where I have no idea how to introduce myself when starting a new job. Like I can feel my brain short circuiting when I'm on a Zoom call and a new manager asks me to share a fun fact about myself. I just started a new role and have to confess that I spent time brainstorming with my wife on what I can share in case the prompt comes up. The best I could come up with is saying I've had scarlet fever or that I'm left handed, but can dribble with my right hand. 

Woodruff-Santos: Go with that. That's dope. 

Hershman: “I know I can't be the only one who dreads being put on the spot like that. It's small and it's kind of silly, but would appreciate any advice or just sharing in my misery.”

Woodruff-Santos: I do. I am…

Khrais: So relatable! 

Woodruff-Santos: …so there with you. Social anxiety, man.

Khrais: Dude, I still feel like in my 34 years of life, I do not have a fun fact to share. like, what, what's your fun fact? 

Woodruff-Santos: I, I…

Khrais: Putting you on the spot!

Woodruff-Santos: No, no, no. No, no no. I dread this question myself. And you know what I would do today is I would just ask ChatGPT. I'd be like, here's a little bit about me. Like, I don't know… And honestly, I have enough of my life on the internet. I'd be like…

Khrais: That’s so funny. Just pull a fact…

Woodruff-Santos: Can you tell me a fun fact about Mandi Woodruff-Santos? Like, what's interesting? 

Khrais: That’s so funny! 

Woodruff-Santos: Also, just invent a lie. Just invent a lie.

Khrais: Stop! No!

Woodruff-Santos: No, but for real. Who cares? Low stakes. “I was a Boy Scout.” 

Khrais: That is so funny, I actually like, to me, it feels like the stakes are not insignificant. Like, okay, you’re put on the spot…

Woodruff-Santos: Oh, you’re on the overthinking train. 

Khrais: Oh, one hundred percent!

Woodruff-Santos: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Khrais: Especially if you're new to a role and you're just like, in a Zoom meeting, someone puts you on the spot to share a fun fact. And it might be months before you meet all of your colleagues, and now you've just branded yourself with this, like, very specific, weird fact, like, you have scarlet fever. 

Woodruff-Santos: Only if you pick a weird fact, don't go with scarlet fever. 

Khrais: That is true, that is true. So maybe that's like, be safe. Pick something more relatable?  

Woodruff-Santos: You have to accept: No one's gonna think your fact is that fun. I don't know, are you Beyoncé's cousin? Maybe I would think that's fun. But I think we really have to, we have to get off the overthinking train. This is like a lazy river float. We just need to, like, get on the river and just say whatever comes to mind. 

Khrais: Well, how do you, how are you chill? How do you like, stop overthinking?

Woodruff-Santos: Oh my gosh, lots of therapy and training yourself and talking your fears out loud. For me, what really helps is talking things through with a trusted person who I can be safe, so you find your workplace bestie. You know, oh my gosh, one time I, I made fun of my boss, who was sleeping at his desk, on the company Slack channel, and it went to like, the everybody Slack channel. 

Khrais: Nooooo. Oh no!

Woodruff-Santos: Yes! And I was so embarrassed. And anyway, I was so mortified, and I just went and talked with some colleagues, and they were like, “Just delete it. We won't say anything.”

Khrais: Right, right. Yeah. And that’s what you did?

Woodruff-Santos: Exactly, I think we drive ourselves nuts when we let ourselves be the only voice in our heads. 

Khrais: That’s so true. 

Woodruff-Santos: We gotta put more in the mix.

Khrais: I know, and then remembering that, obviously not everyone is thinking about you and the way that you think about yourself. Everyone's just concerned with how they're coming across more or less

Woodruff-Santos: Yeah, a hundred percent. 

Khrais: Yeah. We don't do fun facts on our team anymore when someone new comes on. Instead, I'm curious what you think of this, we do two truths and a lie. 

Woodruff-Santos: Love it.

Khrais: Is that better? Is it worse?

Woodruff-Santos: I mean, it's harder, because then, then you want your truth to be cool, you know.

Khrais: Yeah. 

Woodruff-Santos: Honestly, I think the best thing you can do is ask in advance, “Will there be an icebreaker? Can you give me a heads up?” And plan something. 

Khrais: Yeah

Woodruff-Santos: Especially if you're someone who doesn't like being put on the spot. And as a manager myself, I had to learn that these one-size-fit-all, you know… 

Khrais: Right

Woodruff-Santos: …icebreakers for extroverts kind of thing, it doesn't make people feel good, so like, why do them? Especially if you have people on your team who are more introverted or don't like being put on the spot, or are really funny and witty and intelligent, but they need to process something and think about it first. And there's this culture of, like, being quick-witted and like having a pithy remark right away. And I think managers should just, like, chill out and think of who's on their team, and, and if that person needs a heads up so that they can prepare something so they feel more comfortable, then just give them that. 

Khrais: Yeah.

Woodruff-Santos: We're so afraid to just be… 

Khrais: I know

Woodruff-Santos: …messy and awkward and, and…

Khrais: We don't realize that vulnerability actually connects us. 

Woodruff-Santos: Amen. Yes, absolutely, that is a word. 

Khrais: So, when it comes to those awkward getting-to-know you moments, maybe keep your fun facts short and sweet and don’t divulge your unique medical history. Coming up after the break…

Hershman: “The problem is he is making about $40,000 more than me, but we basically have the exact same job…”

Khrais: One more piece of drama…

[Break] 

Hershman: So, our next one comes from someone named, “Underpaid, Underappreciated.” They say, “Dear TIU, I've been with the same company for 10 years. It was my first real job out of college. I love the people and I love the work. In the past, I've even chosen to stay in this job and not pursue more lucrative paths, because I love the work so much. For a while now, my workload has been way more than one person can cover. My boss has recently moved a coworker onto my team to help with the workload. I think very highly of this colleague, and I'm happy to have the help, but the problem is he is making about $40,000 more than me…”

Khrais: Yikes.

Hershman: “...but we basically have the exact same job.”

Woodruff-Santos: Oh lord.

Hershman: “There has been a lot of reorganization at the company, and I don't feel that my manager or my manager's boss has my back. Also, because I've been here for so long, since my early 20s, it feels like sometimes people still see me as a lower level employee, even though I've gained a lot of experience since then and have accomplished a lot for the company. It seems inevitable that I need to look for a new job, but I really love my job and would like to stay. Any thoughts?” 

Khrais: We've got thoughts. This feels like such a classic scenario, right? 

Woodruff-Santos: Oh, a hundred percent.

Khrais: Like you've heard this before?

Woodruff-Santos: All the time, all the time. The thing is, like you are, you've done all the right things, but it just doesn't work for the way that corporate America is set up, because it is set up to make profit and to make it at the lowest cost at all. And when you have told them that you're willing to stay and you're not going to leave, when they underpay you, then they're just going to take you at your word.

Khrais: Mmhmm.

Woodruff-Santos: Unfortunately, sometimes it can be too much to come back from, and you do, you either need to make them think you're going to leave, so get a competing offer and show them that you they can't take you for granted, or you may just have to leave and then get rehired by them later – and I've seen this happen too – at your proper market rate. 

Khrais: Really?

Woodruff-Santos: Yeah, exactly. And…

Khrais: Like, they leave, get another job and then come back?

Woodruff-Santos: Yep, it may take a year, two years, but you know, if they really do love their colleagues and they love them back, then they'll try to get you back, or they won't let you leave in the first place. And I think what we're not ready to admit is that we love our jobs, but it doesn't love us back. And you can do that same work – unless, I don't know, you have a very specific job – you can probably find similar work at another place. 

Khrais: I think, if I’m understanding correctly, this is a woman, and she was saying that her co-worker, who's a male, was making 40,000 more dollars than her for the same, basically the same job. So okay, if this person goes to their manager and tries to negotiate, should they bring gender in this conversation? Beyond that, like, how should they approach this with their manager? You know, if they decide to stay at the company and negotiate.

Woodruff-Santos: Well, I love that she knows. I love that at some point she has either spoken to this colleague or been a little investigator and found out their compensation. And I think that's great. I think that we should understand what colleagues are getting paid…

Khrais: Yeah.

Woodruff-Santos: …but I don't want her to spend too much time worried about why this person makes 40k. If you were going to bring it up to your manager, you could do that. You could let them know that you found out. But what I think is better is to keep that person out of it, because they're going to focus on that. They're going to try to explain why it happened, and, “Oh, they have this much more experience, and blah, blah, blah,” and that, to me, is just BS. What you want to do is, do your market research and find out: here's what the market says I am valued at today, with my skills and experience. And you can present some data. And by that, I mean, do interviews, get competing offers, or simply do your research online. GlassDoor, Payscale. A lot of job listings in various states have to include salary ranges now, so you can do a cursory bit of research there… 

Khrais: Right.

Woodruff-Santos: …and bring that. But nothing is going to be more powerful than a hard, cold offer from another company. 

 Khrais: You keep going back to the same thing, but it's real.

Woodruff-Santos: Yeah.

Khrais: Yeah, yeah, it’s so true.

Woodruff-Santos: But it's the most difficult thing for people to wrap their heads around.

Khrais: I know.

Woodruff-Santos: It's a lot of work to get to that offer. 

Khrais: It takes a lot of work. It also feels a little, I don't know, is “threatening” the right word? I mean it is, but it puts you at odds with the company more starkly, and I think that can feel scary to some people.

Woodruff-Santos: I don't think it puts you at odds. I think that's what happens in business. 

Khrais: People expect it, or like the hiring manager does?

Woodruff-Santos: Listen, I think mature hiring managers expect it. I'm not trying to say that there are, there aren't some managers who are going to do the whole “What? How could you?” That may very well happen, but the fact of the matter is that this is very normal. Companies do it all the time, and I want people to be more, maybe, you know, you don't have to be super… It's all about your tone and your delivery. You can go in there to say…

Khrais: Totally!

Woodruff-Santos:  Yeah. And the thing is, if you have an offer letter, you can be sweet as pie and just say, “Oh, hi, you look great today. I just wanted you to take a look at this, like, I don't know it's, like, a lot more money and I just wanted you…” 

Khrais: [laugh] It’s a lot more money. “I don't know, they're paying me 50,000 more dollars…”

Woodruff-Santos: Exactly, you don't have to be a negotiation expert. You just got to have a piece of paper. That's all you need.

Khrais: And then it's not a betrayal, it's strategic.

Woodruff-Santos: It's not your fault you're so amazing and someone else wants to pay you more!

Khrais: Everyone wants you, I don't know!

Woodruff-Santos: Yeah!

Khrais: I also really like this question. It reminds me of when I was early in my career, early 20s, and I was at a happy hour with some coworkers, and I was talking to one of my, to one of my colleagues, and she was, you know, she's a few years older than me, a bit more experienced, but we had a similar job title, and she shared her salary, and it was like 30,000 more dollars than I made, at least. And it was such a gut punch. I remember feeling kind of emotional about it. And I held on to it. I don't think I did anything with it for a while, but when it came time to negotiate, I had that information, right? And so it just generally taught me how important it is to talk with your co-workers and other people in your industry about their salary. As you know, as uncomfortable as it can be.

Woodruff-Santos: How did it go when you brought that up? 

Khrais: I don't think I used that anecdote necessarily, but it was just again, like, one more piece of information that I had to be like, “This is what I should get. This is a fair rate.” And honestly, it went kind of well, I did get a decent bump. 

Woodruff-Santos: Nice, that’s huge!

Khrais: yeah. And I don't think I would have had the courage to do that otherwise. 

Woodruff-Santos: That information gave you courage, yeah.

Khrais: I know.

Woodruff-Santos: Because you're like, this is not just throwing a shot in the dark. 

Khrais: I know.

Woodruff-Santos: And then also they know. 

Khrais: They know, yeah.

Woodruff-Santos: They know what the other people are earning.

Khrais: But I should say you should talk with people in your industry, because I also remember another time when I talked with a friend who works at Google, and I told her how much I made, and she was like, she was like, “Girl, you need to make, like, three times more than that.” 

Woodruff-Santos: Girl!

Khrais: And I was like, “No, no, no, we're, we're, we're, we're a non-profit, let me be clear.” But I really like internalized that. And the more I thought about it, the more I was like, yeah, she's on to something. And I tried to negotiate a kind of laughable… I feel like I'm cringing even thinking back to this. But yeah, no, we don't make that Google money.  

Woodruff-Santos: Well, yes and no. I mean, I got a lot of great advice from someone early in my career who was from the banking industry, not my industry, but he helped normalize certain conversations like signing bonuses, equity…

Khrais: Totally.

Woodruff-Santos: …even just having the conversation. So I do think it's great to… of course, you don't want to, like, get advice from someone who's it can't really be applied. But that energy that… 

Khrais: You're right.

Woodruff-Santos: …the ability to ask for more, the fact that you got more confident when you asked for more, like that, that is nice. So…

Khrais: Yeah.

Woodruff-Santos: …yeah, having a healthy expectation, but then not letting that stop you from asking, is great.

Khrais: I love this. This was so fun. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. 

Woodruff-Santos: Thank you. This was really fun. Thanks, Reema.

Khrais: So when negotiating, first of all talk to your coworkers about  how much you’re all making if you can! And then – it’s classic advice for a reason – but one of the best ways to get more money from your current job is to get an offer from another workplace.

Alright, we loved helping you all with your work conundrums. And we want to keep doing this, so if you’ve been ruminating on an issue at work and could use some advice… Or maybe you just need to vent about that one coworker… Send your Work Drama to us! You can send a note to uncomfortable@marketplace.org or you can call or leave a message at ‪(347) 746-4848.

And if you want to hear more of Mandi's tips for negotiation, check out her recent appearance on Marketplace's personal finance podcast, Financially Inclined.

And one more thing! We just published our second Uncomfortable e-book, this time with tips on how to plan for retirement. 

There’s expert advice in there for everyone, if you’re just starting out in your career or if you’re looking to catch up.  

It is free, so be sure to get your copy now at marketplace.org/retirement.

Alright, that’s all for our show this week. 

This episode was lead-produced by Hayley Hershman with help from Katie Reuther and hosted by me, Reema Khrais. This Is Uncomfortable’s producer is Alice Wilder. Our intern is Zoha Malik. Zoë Saunders is our senior producer. Our editor is Jasmine Romero. Sound design and audio engineering is by Drew Jostad. Bridget Bodnar is Marketplace’s Director of Podcasts. Francesca Levy is the Executive Director of Digital. Neal Scarborough is Vice President and general manager of Marketplace. And our theme music is by Wonderly.

Alright, I’ll catch y’all next week.

Khrais: Well, remember, I was terrified!

Hershman: You were terrified. 

Khrais: I like, there were certain parts of the office I didn't want to, like, walk towards because I was afraid of the dogs, which, by the way, I should say, in retrospect, not afraid of dogs today.

Hershman: I know now you, like, are a huge animal lover.

Khrais: Well, remember that picture that I took with one of the dogs? I had, like, a whole photo shoot eventually, because I ended up really liking one of them.