10
Patagonia founder on why there's no 'sustainability'
Patagonia clothing founder Yvon Chouinard has written a new book he hopes will be a blueprint for companies to do better... by doing good.
To view this content, Javascript must be enabled and Adobe Flash Player must be installed.
Kai Ryssdal: You might call Yvon Chouinard an accidental environmentalist. Sounds unkind, but I'm not saying anything the founder of Patagonia, the outdoor clothing company, doesn't say about himself. As a younger man, Chouinard was a pioneering mountaineer. He started making climbing equipment in his parents' backyard in the 1950s. And he's since built a brand that anyone who's ever gone on a hike knows about. He's driven his company to profitability, and also activism. From the importance of paying a living wage to a defense of the environment, Patagonia reflects Chouinard's vision of how companies ought to be run.
It's a vision he details in his new book, "The Responsible Company." In today's Conversation from the Corner Office, Yvon Chouinard and the lessons he learned when his climbing gear pitons --that you hammer into the rock when you're on the mountain -- did more harm than good.
Yvon Chouinard: Yeah, well that was an unintended consequence of thinking we were doing the right thing. We made our pitons out of a harder steel so that they could be taken out and put in, taken out and put in, and last a long time. But it turned out when there got to be so many climbers around, putting 'em in and taking 'em out, it started destroying the rock. That was kind of our first lesson. The fact that we were causing the damage, so therefore we should do something about it.
Ryssdal: 'Course there is that responsibility tax, right? Because I can come to Patagonia and spend $200 on a really useful coat, but I can go to the Gap and get one for $44.99.
Chouinard: Somebody said poor people can't afford to buy cheap goods.
Ryssdal: Hmm, that's a great line.
Chouinard: You can go to Costco and buy a blender, first time you put ice in it, it will blow out. Save up, wait until you can afford a really good one that will last the rest of your life.
Ryssdal: This book is an evangelical book in the very secular sense. You want people to read this and change the way they do business. Do you care, though, why they change? Is it OK if they're doing it for the good PR and for the benefits that they might get from good publicity or is it important that they do it for the right reasons?
Chouinard: No, it doesn't matter why they do it as long as they do it. I think if you start out on that process of trying to be more responsible, after a while you realize how good it feels. It becomes a habit. This millenium generation, these young people, are going to demand that from you. Everybody's making the same stuff and the consumer has the final say.
Ryssdal: Do you ever sit back and think how interesting it is that you, a 70-what 73-, 74-year-old guy is trying to give the millennials what they want?
Chouinard: Yeah, I never thought I'd come to this at all. I do this because I'm very pessimistic about the fate of the planet. I think there's another way of doing business that is less harmful.
Ryssdal: I found it interesting that -- and you make a point of this actually -- you don't talk about sustainability a lot. You say that's kind of overused and it's become a little bit cheapened.
Chouinard: Yeah, it's like gourmet. You get gourmet hamburgers now. It's a watered-down word. There is no sustainability as far as any human, economic endeavor. We're polluters here and we recognize that. All you can do is work towards minimizing the damage that you do. You'll never be sustainable.
Ryssdal: You, Patagonia, is in a number of associations and organizations with Wal-Mart, which I just find fascniating. You'd think you guys would be uneasy bedfellows, at best.
Chouinard: Yeah, we've been advising them and working with them on creating a sustainability index for clothing. Within a few years, a customer will be able to go into a department store and they can zap the barcode with their little electronic gizmo, whatever it is in a few years. And it'll give a grade on how the labor practices were in making that pair of jeans, and all the environmental impacts, and there will be a grade. So the customer will be able to say, 'Oh this is a two, this is a 10. I'm going to buy the 10.'
Ryssdal: When you started, however many years ago it was, did you ever think you'd be sitting here running a company that's trying to change the world?
Chouinard: No, absolutely not. I'm not very good at thinking into the future. I kind of live for the day.
Ryssdal: Oh, come on. I don't actually believe that.
Chouinard: No, I'm not that good at it.
Ryssdal: What's next then? There's more, right?
Chouinard: Well, as soon as you leave I'm going surfing.
Ryssdal: Oh man. Yvon Chouinard, thanks very much for your time.
Chouinard: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.
Foul ball, Yvon.
Your guest clearly has an axe to grind with Costco, I believe he's known for that. "Buy a blender at Costco, first time you put ice in it, it blows out," in a pig's eye! Not only does Costco sell generally higher quality goods (and prides themselves on it) than Sams[1] and BJ's, but has a return policy way, way more convivial than those. I've brought in products that stopped working through manufacturer's fault up to 19 months after purchase, and gotten a cheerful return. A CompactFlash memory card that never lived up to its "high speed" promise, and lay unused for a year or two, was also accepted for a refund. They offer a toll-free "concierge" service for electronics, and extend manufacturer's warranties on electronics products, gratis -- name me another big box store that *gives* you an extended warranty.
[1] I presume he couldn't say "Sam's" because his company does business with Wal-Mart, which operates the Sam's Club chain. A-ha! Think that he might've been rebuked by Costco, say over pricing or quality concerns? I wonder....
Once in a while, I'll pay more for something at Costco because I know the company stands behind it. Yvon's crack about a faulty blender just doesn't ring true. Maybe he should realize that one biased lie discredits everything else he has to say. ;)
i wonder what kind of blender yvon thinks i should buy? and where would a poor person, such as myself, find this magical blender that lasts a life time?
this interview was successful in turning casual patagonia customers away. yvon came off as very unlikable and kind of shady.
"You can go to Costco and buy a blender, first time you put ice in it, it will blow out. Save up, wait until you can afford a really good one that will last the rest of your life." This is the oldest retail line in the books. He leaves out that you can go out and buy reasonably priced goods that will also last a lifetime. Those $500 Patagonia jackets are manufactured on the same street(s) in Viet Nam as other clothing which is just as durable. "Somebody said poor people can't afford to buy cheap goods." Yeah, and poor people can't afford to buy expensive ones either.
Yvon and Patagonia are environmental phonies. They have moved their production overseas just like other less expensive companies. The 1% for the planet is a complete marketing ploy to charge 20-50% premiums.
Some of Yvon's direct environmental support appears to be completely un-researched. It was hands down laughable when he supported the Marine Life Environmental Act (MLPA.) MLPA shut down nearly all recreational and commercial reef fishing and reef spearfishing in California despite being one of the worlds most sustainable fisheries. After MLPA went into effect, Patagonia pushed a line of imported Salmon jerky caught with nets. So shutting down our healthy fisheries to import fish from abused fisheries for your profits is a good idea??? To top it off, Patagonia still runs catalog pics of spearfisherman shooting reef fish which they help shut down. Complete hypocrisy!!!
Is this book a case study on building a brand through false representation? Probably. Is Patagonia a company to support in hopes of making the world a better place? Heck no.
I still have a patagonia polypro shirt from when I was 10 years old (20 years ago). It is red and it's from when they only had red and blue colors and men sizes. It's extra small but it still fits. Now the patagonia long underwear shirts last for maybe a year. So I have to beg to differ that Patagonia's goods last the rest of my life--but I know they are capable of making them that way. And because they do have an ironclad guarantee--I take advantage of it--because I hope that some day they will go back to making clothes that do last the rest of my life. However, I understand perfectly that it makes better business sense to make clothes that last only a couple of years--because then each person will buy 30 polypro shirts instead of just 2.
I was intrigued to hear Mr. Chouinard's seemingly out-of-character pot shot at Costco early in the interview until true character was revealed in Mr. Chouinard's conflict of interest and his commercial relationship with Walmart. Mr. Chouinard's comment will have much more more impact on whether I choose to buy Patagonia products (or read his book) than on my decision to shop at Costco or Walmart.
For the record, I have purchased two blenders at Costco in the last 20 years, used daily with ice. If after 10 years I didn't think I received value for the blender, I could take it back and they would replace it no hassle. I wouldn't think of buying a blender at Walmart.
I guess this is a valid reaction, but I think you are misinterpreting the point.
I don’t think Yvon was attempting to put down Costco, that may have been poor company usage on his part, especially considering Costco doesn’t actually make the blenders and that they likely sell one of the “really good” one’s he’s talking about. The real point is in “buy a [cheap] blender, first time you put ice in it, it will blow out. Save up, wait until you can afford a really good one that will last the rest of your life.” Reduce continiuos over consumption of the cheap crap and pay the extra $1 for the quality that will last a long time. Yvon and Patagonia’s mission is to reduce over-consumption by providing a quality product that will last a lifetime. Build the product in an eco-conscious fashion, and you are really onto it.
The relationship with Walmart has no commercial value or profit drive. They and 20+ other large and small companies including Nike, Target, Columbia, and REI, are collating to create an index that allows the consumer to make a more educated purchase based on quality - environmental and social impact. I am sure it’s a challenge getting eco-destroying companies on board with this, considering such a tag may deter a sale, but I guess that's the point. Hopefully it would force them into better business practice.
Give the consumer the ability to decide what they want to purchase, rather than allowing the company the power to dictate what’s consumed. The GMO labeling issue relates well to this -http://www.labelgmos.org/
I myself have purchased a blender at Costco that has worked well and lasted a long time, I think Yvon would like that, we should let him know :)
At the end of this interview, Yvon Chouinard was referring to green product rankings. I certainly hope that Mr. Chouinard has not bought into Walmart's greenwashing. All would do well to read this hot-off-the-press report, entitled "Walmart's Greenwash" at http://www.ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/walmart-greenwash-report.pdf in which it has a section starting on p. 12 called: "What Happened to Walmart's Promised Green Product Rankings?" Much of it includes an older report entitled, "Walmart's promised green product rankings fall off the radar" at:
http://grist.org/business-technology/2011-11-21-walmart-promised-green-p... that includes this excerpt: "In the last few months, the consortium [set up by Walmart] has finally said that it is not in fact developing a rating system or even product-specific information. It is assembling general lifecycle data for types of products – a typical environmental footprint for orange juice or detergent, say, but not for specific brands within those categories. Spokesperson Jon Nicol says this data could be a starting point for a rating system should a company wish to develop one. So far, the consortium has finished just 10 assessments. A Walmart supercenter carries roughly 140,000 items across thousands of product types." And cynics say "Some suppliers privately grumbled that the survey was merely a tool for Walmart to better understand their cost structures and use that knowledge against them."
Has Eve Troeh done any recent reports on the topic of Walmart's promised green product rankings?
