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The world of health-care pricing

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EDITOR'S NOTE: The American Medical Association raised concerns about the fairness and accuracy of this report on the Relative Value Update Committee and its role in determining what Medicare pays for medical procedures. (Read the response) The AMA expressed concern that neither it nor the committee's leadership was contacted for comment. The reporter interviewed a veteran member of the committee, among other experts, but should have contacted the AMA. Marketplace has offered the AMA the opportunity to comment on-air, on its Letters segment. The committee's chairman, Dr. Barbara Levy, said the panel of physicians "does not set prices for medical services." The report notes that the committee's role is advisory but states it "sets" values for procedures. The committee's role is advisory:  it assesses factors that go into a procedure (for example, time spent and devices or drugs used) and recommends a relative value for the procedure to the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services. If the CMS accepts a recommendation, it then applies a formula incorporating other information to set dollar prices for the procedure. The committee, which is known as the RUC, states on its website: "CMS has recognized the expertise of the RUC by adopting 95%" of its recommendations. The article's online headline overstated the confidentiality of the committee and its work. The headline has been revised.


Kai Ryssdal: We're down to counting mere days 'til the Supreme Court shares its thoughts on the healthcare reform law. The ruling will talk about constitutionality and the individual mandate and the Commerce Clause. And maybe about the rising cost of health care in this country.

So to that end... who do you suppose sets the price of individual medical procedures? If you said insurance companies or the government, you're only half right. Because the prices your insurance company pays are based on a set of values listed in a phone-book sized directory of billing codes. Those codes are pretty much the economic hierarchy of modern medicine. They say what's costs more: a colonoscopy or a CT scan or chemotherapy? And those values are set by a closed-door committee of the American Medical Association.

At the Marketplace Health Desk at WHYY, Gregory Warner has been trying to figure out how that committee works.

Gregory Warner: It's called the Relative Value Update Committee, but everyone knows it as the RUC. It's a committee of the AMA. It meets every four monthsin a hotel conference room. And right here -- this being a radio story -- is where I'd play you the sound of one of those meetings. You might hear heated debates between some three dozen doctors over which procedures should be worth and which ones Medicare should pay higher prices for. But I can't play you that sound because RUC meetings are invitation only. Observers are sworn to secrecy. Even the names of the doctors on this private committee were -- until recently -- kept confidential. For those who have been before the RUC, it's a powerful experience.

Richard Waguespack: I've never sat before Congress or any congressional committee, but it is like sitting before a committee that that is the final determiner.

Dr. Richard Waguespack is with the American Academy of Otolaryngology. That's Ear, Nose and Throat docs. It's been his job to come before the RUC to defend his specialty's procedures.

Waguespack: And to make sure that they are properly valued.

The value of a procedure, the fee paid to the doctor, is figured out by adding up hundreds of tiny variables -- from how many average minutes of time the doctor might spend to how many rolls of gauze he might use. These variables are measured and voted on by the RUC. For example, Dr. Waguespack recently presented a new procedure to the RUC called balloon sinus surgery. In this treatment a tiny plastic balloon is used to widen your sinus cavity. In this case the physician doesn't spend many minutes of time, but the supplies are expensive -- $2,600 for a little plastic balloons, and you have to buy a new balloon for each patient. So that was factored into the price. While the exact dollar amount varies a lot by geography and other factors, the average fee is around $3,000 per sinus. Here's Dr Waguespack:

Waguespack: It was felt that these balloons would be used one per sinus.

But doctors use the same balloon for up to six sinuses. Billing Medicare $18,000 for extra balloons that they didn't need or buy.

Waguespack: Some people were expressing concern this appeared to be an undue windfall.

It would kind of be like your mechanic changed your four tires and charged you for four sets of wrenches. Except that would be fraud. In this case, the way the RUC set the value, doctors have no choice but to overcharge.

Charles Koopmann: The system didn't work, OK? And it didn't work with everyone having good intentions.

Dr. Charles Koopmann has served on the RUC for 20 years, or as long as there's been a RUC. So, he's got a lot of experience with valuing codes. He is also the lone Ear Nose and Throat doctor on the RUC -- which means that if anyone in the room that day might have realized that doctors could use the same balloon multiple times, it would have been him.

Koopmann: Did it enter my mind? It really didn't. All we wanted to do is make sure that the costs got covered for a sinus that you were operating on. And, um, that we were successful in. And it turns out we were awfully successful!

I talked to a number of ENT surgeons. All of them said that that most doctors in their field would know that you can reuse a balloon in multiple sinuses. Tom Salzer is an otolaryngologist in Texas.

Tom Salzer: Yeah, I think they would understand that for two reasons. One is it's commonsense.

And the second reason is the device company, owned by Johnson & Johnson, will hold your hand every step of the way.

Salzer: They'll come to your office -- you have to do a certain number of them in the operating room -- and they are there for your first several to help you through them.

Yet apparently no one came to help Charles Koopmann or the other doctors on the RUC that priced this procedure. A central criticism of the RUC is its exclusivity. It has no health economists, no patient groups on its board. RUC members primarily hear from and are chosen by physician specialty societies.

Brian Klepper: Doctors end up coming in and lobbying for their own interests. Having a seat on the RUC is a pathway to do that.

Brian Klepper is a health care analyst in Florida. When he says lobbying you don't have to imagine Washington types with bags of money. He says its sort of built into the process. When the RUC wants to measure those hundreds of variables that go into valuing a code, the first thing that happens is that specialists on the RUC survey other specialists in the profession.

Klepper: When the RUC is evaluating a procedure, they make it known to the society, the society sends out notices that: 'It would be really good if all of our members responded to this because you know the way you respond to this is going to be directly reflected in how we get paid!'

Officially the RUC plays only an advisory role. But a study in Health Affairs last month found that Medicare accepts that advice 90 percent of the time. Remember, we're talking about $80 billion of taxpayer money. But the RUC is even more powerful than that -- because Medicare's reimbursement rates are used as the basis for almost every private insurance company in the country.

Charlie Baker: This is the platform that decides how we pay providers.

Charlie Baker is the former CEO of the Harvard Pilgrim health plan, a not-for-profit insurer in Massachusetts. He says if you want to know what's wrong in health care, Google the RUC.

Baker: By having a process that for all intensive purposes isn't a public process, and doesn't appear to actually be accountable to much of anybody, I think that's kind of un-American!

Medicare officials tell me that they are pushing back against the influence of specialists. They started something called the Misvalued Codes Initiative. And they say that new codes often come into the world with mistakes in them, and Medicare can address them. This year Medicare reduced the fee paid for balloon sinus surgery by 43 percent, so a little less of a windfall. Don Berwick is a former director of CMS, that's the federal agency that runs Medicare.

Don Berwick: Remember that there are thousands of codes that are in play in any year.

And hundreds of thousands of variables that go into pricing them.

Berwick: It would take a long time -- years -- for CMS, even if it had the resources, to go back over every single code and make an independent judgement from what the RUC has made.

The irony is this, he says: as long as we've agreed to pay doctors by adding up the hundreds of specialized things that a doctor does in the course of a procedure, the only people with the expertise to sort through all these variables will be other doctors. So for better or worse, he says, Medicare is stuck with the RUC. Because for now, there's no one else. In Philadelphia I'm Gregory Warner for Marketplace.


Ryssdal: There's more about the RUC, including what the RUC is and isn't according to the American Medical Association.

About the author

Gregory Warner is a senior reporter covering the economics and business of healthcare for the entire Marketplace portfolio.

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xyz's picture
xyz - Jun 25, 2012

Is it true that the participants of healthcare (Doctors, Hospitals, Test Labs, Health Insurance Industry etc) are mafia group?
Is it true the only assurance provided is the profits they make?

lionrunning's picture
lionrunning - Jun 20, 2012

I am glad that you were able to get perspective from Dr. Barbara Levy and the AMA about their process. while I agree that specialist Doctors do have a lot of knowledge about the inputs of the procedures they perform, I still find it bordering on an ethical issue in terms of the potential for unchecked Advisory Relative Value Unit Cost Creep- as it is in the physicians' interest to cover their costs and enhance their living. It is what it is- we live in an industrious society. There is great information asymmetry, and the specialist knowledge is relied upon for CMS to come up with costs for procedures. I think it could only give more fair and balanced advisory if the RUC were to incorporate patient advocates who had some level of medical education and who have specialised in certain areas of care. I know this might take a while- but I think it is the only way to re-establish some balance in the asymmetry. If some specialist nurses or Medical Assistants or other Allied Health Care practitioners or administrators could be trained in Health Economics and the business of health and patient advocacy- and more detailed medical information about the specialty area they will work on - then their voices could be added to help keep things balanced. One of the main causes of health costs escalating is that one party has a monopoly on knowledge and price setting. This is just a suggestion- which I think could prove invaluable. I do truly appreciate the voluntary time the Physician specialists have contributed to this issue- but in fairness, it is in their interest to do so as they could not perform if their costs were not covered and if their profits were minimal to non-existent.

brucequinn's picture
brucequinn - Jun 14, 2012

I discovered a few days after reading this article that the AMA asserts it has been concerned about this problem (the Sinuplasty problem featured in the article) for a couple years, and has asked the Medicare agency to make the coding rules more precise to avoid this problem in the first place. The AMA's letter to Medicare is publicly available at http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/rbrvs/ruc-recommendations-care-coo... See Page 6, Separate Payment for High Cost Supplies.

Barbara Levy M.D. RUC Chair's picture
Barbara Levy M.... - Jun 19, 2012

Within weeks of the government putting in place the code for sinus surgeries mentioned here the RUC alerted the government of a problem and urged them to resolve the issue. They responded to the RUC request and now the concern has been addressed.

SprigHealth's picture
SprigHealth - Jun 14, 2012

There has been a movement to a cash-based system that is turning this price-setting system on its head. With the proliferation of high deductible health plans, HSAs, and HRAs, consumers (patients) are becoming much more educated and savvy about their health care expenditures. As a result, you see innovative companies sprouting across our country with the objective of creating a more transparent system. Doctors and provider groups are setting their own prices and making them visible to others.

The purchasing power of Medicare and Medicaid is influential, but look to the millions of individuals that are not part of CMC to drive greater transparency and control the loopholes that currently exist.

MightyCasey's picture
MightyCasey - Jun 13, 2012

The biggest issue in healthcare is PATIENT access to and understanding of pricing.

More of us are trying to shop for healthcare the same way we shop for other services, but asking for pricing is always met with a confused "what?" - the industry itself has no idea what their own pricing structure IS. If a patient is uninsured, s/he can negotiate cash pricing at hospitals and doctors' offices that often is much lower than what insurance reimbursement pricing would be. This spells all kinds of doom for both the industry, and the insurers, particularly if the ACA is killed by the Supremes. Can you say "chaos"?

Here's a link to a recent LA Times piece on cash price negotiation: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/27/business/la-fi-medical-prices-20...

SprigHealth's picture
SprigHealth - Jun 14, 2012

You hit the nail on the head. There are even companies that are negotiating lower prices and sharing those prices with cash-paying patients. These types of companies are going to play a major role in establishing a more transparent system.

Miriam J Laugesen's picture
Miriam J Laugesen - Jun 12, 2012

The story mentions a study we published last month in Health Affairs. Here is a link to the article:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/31/5/965.abstract

Barbara Levy M.D. RUC Chair's picture
Barbara Levy M.... - Jun 12, 2012

It is disappointing that the reporter did not contact the RUC or the AMA for information before filing this misleading story. If he had he would have learned that the RUC does not set prices for medical services. The government does. Also, far from secret, more than 300 people attend RUC meetings and their process is publically available at www.ama-assn.org/go/rbrvs. The RUC is a group of physicians from many different specialties who share recommendations with the government, as all individuals and groups have the ability to do. Their work is done at no cost to taxpayers. It is important to note that within weeks of the government putting in place the code for sinus surgeries mentioned here the RUC alerted the government of a problem and urged them to resolve the issue. They responded to the RUC request and now the concern has been addressed. This story is much ado about nothing.

Metaphor's picture
Metaphor - Jun 12, 2012

It would be hard to imagine a story that demonstrated more convincingly why Soviet-style central planning is such a disaster whether it is applied to health care or any other aspect of the economy. And why Obamacare will only make matters worse. The only way to restrain the growth in health care costs before they bankrupt us is to stop outlawing market competition and restore to health care users the same discipline they exercise in all other economic transactions. By all means, if you wish, subsidize those on lower incomes by means of variable deductibles and co-pays, and create stop-loss limits to prevent the rare but catastrophic incidence of very high medical costs. As Friedrich Hayek argued so eloquently, it is long-past time to stop pretending that any group of wise men, however well-credentialed or well-intentioned, can possibly ever know enough to write rules that ordain efficiency.

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